Are you over Super Steels?

One reason I like INFI is that it will not chip out. It will just roll or become deformed.
 
I never got "into" the super steels. I'm quite happy with the 1055 to 1095 carbon steels, 440A and 420HC. Never cared much for the 440C, but that may have to do with the heat treat (or lack thereof) of the no-name gas station knives I had back in the day with "440C" blades. Back then, almost every knife claimed a 440C blade - even if it weren't.
 
I remember when I was a kid if the Blade was stamped "Surgical Steel" it was top of the line
 
I've had 6 different S110V knives including this Phil Wilson custom http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/864666-Phil-Wilson-Custom-in-CPM-S110V?highlight=Ankerson+phil+wilson+S110V @ rc 63.5 and .009 edge and I can't say I've seen any chipping. I don't doubt that others have but I haven't. Mine go from the Kershaw Shallot at rc 59 up to the custom noted above and have shown excellent performance. I like it better than S125V ( at rc 62 and rc 64-5) and would pick this steel for working on animals that have thick coarse hair matted with dirt and grit. I would use something else than a Bow River for prying 1 ton animals bones apart obviously but the steel is up to it in every way. I couldn't think of a better blade steel for the task like Elk, Moose, Bear, Buffalo or Bison. Almost 10V abrasive wear with good corrosion resistance. Not as good edge strength as what I usually prefer in the 3V , Cruwear up to 4V and CPM M4 range of alloys but it's good enough with knowledgeable use for even the harder skinning and caping tasks. For wood work I'd take something else and for Batoning I'd use a Froe or hatchet. I'm not real big on batoning with knives when other tools work so much better.

joe

More about the knife, and S110V from Phil Wilson http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/864950-Phil-Wilson-Custom-in-CPM-S110V-full-test.?p=9796322#post9796322
 
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Lycosa said:
One reason I like INFI is that it will not chip out. It will just roll or become deformed.
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This is the most important aspect of any steel for me.
Way ahead of edge retention...

I like to maintain my edges so sharpening is not a chore, but I can't stand Chippy steel.

I think what I have learned in this thread though is that "Chippy" isn't necessarily a steel issue, and is greatly effected by HT and Geometry.

With that said, certain steels will always have limitations to how far you can go before you do see micro-chipping vs the limit on other steels, all things being equal (Proper HT and Geometry)

If I am wrong, please correct me. I want to make sure that I take the proper info from this thread!!
 
I think S35v rocks as does Elmax. The odd thing is lately my favorite knives that I'm actually using and carrying are VG10 and 440c.
 
My FAVORITE blades are

SAK SUPER TINKER knife and a Spyderco Tenacious.

and I have owned most of the Super Steels. But just see no use for them
as I am anal about sharpening a blade.

Cut something. It gets stropped.
 
JR88FAN said:
This is the most important aspect of any steel for me.
Way ahead of edge retention...

I like to maintain my edges so sharpening is not a chore, but I can't stand Chippy steel.

I think what I have learned in this thread though is that "Chippy" isn't necessarily a steel issue, and is greatly effected by HT and Geometry.

With that said, certain steels will always have limitations to how far you can go before you do see micro-chipping vs the limit on other steels, all things being equal (Proper HT and Geometry)

If I am wrong, please correct me. I want to make sure that I take the proper info from this thread!!
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Have to match the geometry to the steel and how you use a knife, that will vary.
 
And I find myself being an idiot a lot of times. I.E. I spent this past week looking for an S30V Kershaw Blur in annodized blue handles (not twill) and a satin PE blade. I wasn't even sure that it existed except that I saw a photo of a blackwash version on some site called massdrop.

I believe as of right now I'm finished with all overbuilt folders. And that the Blur is about as overbuilt as it's gonna get for me. I ran through all the reasons why I needed an S30v or Elmax (I traded my Elmax one like an idiot and really miss that knife) over a very decent Sandvik and became convinced that I needed the S30V or Elmax version. There's no way that I'm going to dull the Sandvik version in a day with the way that I use knives. I also on hikes carry a little dogbone sharpener to spruce things up when needed which to date so far has never been a need.

The super steels are still fun, but I'm not going to let it factor in as much with my knife buying anymore. If I like it, I'm going to go with my gut. Here's my carry today a knife with a 440c blade. I think it's awesome personally.

 
Geometry cuts. No matter if you're literally splitting hairs or actually chopping cinder blocks. Grind it thick enough and a piece of unhardened "welding steel" from Lowe's can be bashed through a concrete block... grind it thin enough and the same steel will shave very nicely. Either way, it will be difficult to break.

Steel selection and HT determine how long a knife keeps cutting.

The most fun and fascinating part for me as a maker, is finding designs and alloys and HT that can be ground thin enough to cut really well and hold up to a lot of use and even abuse. That's what makes a steel "super" in my view.

Big Chris said:
3V is probably my all time favorite steel. If I had to choose only one steel to work with it would be 3V. I have told a lot of people and customers this and it still holds true today. I have yet to find one single steel that performs so well in any application as 3V. Heat treated across the board any blade size or style to 60-61 Rc; the only thing I, as a maker, would want to vary would be the edge thickness before sharpening. I can alter that previous statement to say "optimum performance for the knife would be to adjust the edge thickness for intended tasks".
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I agree 100%. Given the choice of only one alloy to use for the rest of my life, and given the opportunity of one pro-level HT regimen, I would choose 3V at 60Rc for everything from paper-thin slicers to big choppers. With full confidence. :thumbup: It is not the absolute best at anything, but it is really good at everything.

When I first started using 3V I had Peters temper it down to 58Rc to maximize its toughness. After a good deal of testing and customer feedback and input from several other makers with a lot more experience than I have, I now have them temper all my 3V blades to 60Rc. I cannot see any practical loss in toughness in use, and it holds a fine edge even better.
 
bluntcut said:
Carbide tear got mentioned so I happen to look at my CruforgeV (0.75%V) blade under a microscope. Here is the 8K Shapton Glass finished on 10dps, 0.01" thick edge after whittled dried beef rib bone. I didn't nital etch this edge, so most carbides don't show up.

Please ignore the edge mirror image caused by oil refraction.
[snipped...]
You can clearly see areas of undamaged edge and areas with microchips. Call this edge damages (per this steel, ht & geometry certain way) however you like :p
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A follow up, which might interest some of you.

S110V 61RC, 15dps, 0.008" edge thick. Sharpened progression: 320SiC (apexed), 1K+2K+5K+8K Shapton.
Pic of edge *as sharpened* and after some light push whittled dried beef rib bone. 'light push whittle' is mostly as push cut with lateral load to initiate the cut.

beepOds.png
 
This has been a somewhat puzzling thread to read. I am pretty sure I understand the idea/question that Bodog is putting forth. It is a question I have had myself and I got similar reactions. Big Chris, this was a good post so let me see if I can use this information to make a more clear question. The response (after the initial two questions) is not geared specifically toward you...I am just using your post to help me state my question clearly. :)

Big Chris said:
....I have all the confidence in 3V that every knife could be ground to .020" and it would perform for any task asked without failure. Performance would be very good for a chopper but very poor for a parer. Remember that .020" is roughly what most production folders are delivered as. Leave that chopper at .020" it will survive. Make that parer a zero edge. Make the hunter .008", it can take hitting bone. Make a chef knife .004", it will last a lifetime. Make your camp knife .015", go split some wood. Why does 3V and 4V work this way? It is in their chemistry. They were designed to be tough, hold and edge, and be malleable. As a maker I can vary aspects of the heat treat to give benefits to edge holding or toughness, but it is almost the perfect steel from the beginning.
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Ok, you have worked with 3v a ton and have a very clear feel of just how much steel you need at the edge to withstand various work without damage. Would it be reasonable that if you were making those exact blades for those exact tasks out of s110v that you would grind to the same thickness behind the edge?

If the answer is yes, then it begs the question of why one would use 3v at all. You are giving up wear resistance to gain what?

If the answer is no then this becomes interesting and I believe is the idea that Bodog (and I in older threads) was getting at. Could a 3v blade at .010" behind the edge withstand the same "work" as an s110v blade at .015"? (Just making up numbers to present a hypothetical)

Under equal forces, could a steel like 3v provide the same resistance to damage at a thinner grind than a steel like s110v? I think the question is really that simple. I don't think that question has anything to do with Cliff Stamp or Jim Ankerson. I also believe it is a very relevant question and could be one of the largest determining factors in selecting the appropriate blade steel and how a knife will ultimately perform as a cutting instrument. I know this sounds really remedial but if anyone is reading this and thinking "well yeah, duh!" then it might be worth considering why we have been dancing around the question for 5 pages beating our chests. This is a very simple and very important question to knife design is it not?
 
Also, as far as being "over super steels"...nah, I'm not over anything. I have, however, found that I tend to prefer some of what I consider to be the more balanced steels as opposed to the ones on either extreme of the scale. If it weren't for its lack of corrosion resistance I would consider m4 to be about as good as it gets for my uses. Within the realm of stainless I have a Phil Wilson fillet knife in cpm154 that is one of my favorites. That is wonderful stuff to work with. Sharpens up like a dream and has given me plenty of toughness for working with big fish even in a very thin grind. Edge retention is not equal to something like 10v but is very good.
 
Surfingringo said:
This has been a somewhat puzzling thread to read. I am pretty sure I understand the idea/question that Bodog is putting forth. It is a question I have had myself and I got similar reactions. Big Chris, this was a good post so let me see if I can use this information to make a more clear question. The response (after the initial two questions) is not geared specifically toward you...I am just using your post to help me state my question clearly. :)



Ok, you have worked with 3v a ton and have a very clear feel of just how much steel you need at the edge to withstand various work without damage. Would it be reasonable that if you were making those exact blades for those exact tasks out of s110v that you would grind to the same thickness behind the edge?

If the answer is yes, then it begs the question of why one would use 3v at all. You are giving up wear resistance to gain what?

If the answer is no then this becomes interesting and I believe is the idea that Bodog (and I in older threads) was getting at. Could a 3v blade at .010" behind the edge withstand the same "work" as an s110v blade at .015"? (Just making up numbers to present a hypothetical)

Under equal forces, could a steel like 3v provide the same resistance to damage at a thinner grind than a steel like s110v? I think the question is really that simple. I don't think that question has anything to do with Cliff Stamp or Jim Ankerson. I also believe it is a very relevant question and could be one of the largest determining factors in selecting the appropriate blade steel and how a knife will ultimately perform as a cutting instrument. I know this sounds really remedial but if anyone is reading this and thinking "well yeah, duh!" then it might be worth considering why we have been dancing around the question for 5 pages beating our chests. This is a very simple and very important question to knife design is it not?
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Thank you for cutting through the clutter and defensive answers and questions to get right at the heart of what I was trying to say. You hit it right on the head, though I want to include the edge as well as the primary grind behind the edge. And whether some of these guys want to admit it or not, they've agreed that high hardness, high toughness steels with mediocre corrosion resistance would serve them well because they can do everything other steels can while keeping a keen(ish) edge while being used. That keen edge is a result of not fracturing and not rolling the apex, and thats a matter of toughness and hardness over carbide content. After that it's all a matter of which specific heat treatment regimen matches with which specific geometry to match work for which the knife was designed.

Isn't the whole goal of quality knife making taking a slab of steel and making something that cuts as well as it can in the application for which it was designed? For a lot of people that DOES include some rough use with less than controlled cuts in bad environments even if the knife is used ONLY as a cutting implement. I do believe, like James Terrio said, that 3V (though I don't want to sound like I'm claiming real life usage with it) and other closely related steels (that I have had at least some real world experience with) that can be made very hard and tough with some decent corrosion resistance thrown in would serve people better in most situations than steels that need to be made thicker in order to handle the same work load. That's a hypothesis based on my own experience with some of these steels and based on the words, research, and experience of people much more knowledgable than myself.

In my humble, but very outspoken, opinion, the only time some of these other steels should be used is if you KNOW you need higher corrosion resistance or if you KNOW you won't do anything that could even possibly damage the edge. If that's not a known factor or if you KNOW you don't NEED that higher corrosion resistance or you KNOW that you WILL eventually cut something harsh, then go with the thinnest possible grind at the lowest possible angle with the hardest and toughest steels that you can find. After that is accomplished then look for wear resistance. And that leads me to 4V or Vanadis 4E. Hard, tough, high wear resistance, with at least some level of corrosion resistance. Following that would be 3V or M4, or even 52100, class steels depending on what the knife is for, unless I need corrosion resistance then M390 or Elmax would jump up to the plate. If all I was doing was kind of moderate work where I didn't need to use a knife for anything that might damage an edge, then I'd probably give a shot to 10V or S110V from a small batch maker like Big Chris or whoever has a good reputation.

It should be an interesting note that 4V, produced by Big Chris and tested by Jim Ankerson, ground very thin, performed very well in Ankerson's cardboard cutting edge retention tests and also performed very well when I tested the edge for toughness at 62 HRC as quoted by ZT. That's a great combination. I'd love to do the same things with S110V, 3V, and M4 class steels.

Compare Jim's tests for outstanding edge retention on abrasive media and something like my tests for edge retention in basically uncontrolled harsh use and your tests for edge retention in highly corrosive environments. I think the top performers in all three categories would give people a better understanding of steel classes and a better idea of what they should buy and why.

When I get enough money to fund my edge retention via hardness and toughness testing then I'll set something formal up like Jim has done. Until then I need to wait until I free up enough money to buy my own knives to test or rely on maker's who are willing to send examples of their knives to me for a third party opinion. I don't see that happening very often in the near future.
 
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Bluntcut, thanks for the pictures again. Those really help me understand things better in a thread and keep lines of words from skipping around as I'm often on after little sleep.

One thing I found from back in the day of trying to find out why my S30V was micro chipping was when I went up the line grit wise the first couple jumps could change things. Now I never go from 300 to 1K without one or two stops. I'd do a stop at around 600 grit, then again at 800 grit making sure that the sharpening was not done with too much pressure, especially at the coarser grits. When one gets up to the finer grit levels this becomes less important IMO. *Note* especially if beginning at under 300 and or using fast cutting stones.

The higher carbide the steel the more important this becomes IMO. Coarse grit stones used with too much pressure can set the edge up for early failure later.

I'm not suggesting you or anyone sharpens incorrectly but I do want to get this in this thread for future readers just learning about steels and sharpening. Because of this title people will likely be seeing this thread for years.

joe
 
Surfingringo said:
This has been a somewhat puzzling thread to read. I am pretty sure I understand the idea/question that Bodog is putting forth. It is a question I have had myself and I got similar reactions. Big Chris, this was a good post so let me see if I can use this information to make a more clear question. The response (after the initial two questions) is not geared specifically toward you...I am just using your post to help me state my question clearly. :)



Ok, you have worked with 3v a ton and have a very clear feel of just how much steel you need at the edge to withstand various work without damage. Would it be reasonable that if you were making those exact blades for those exact tasks out of s110v that you would grind to the same thickness behind the edge?

If the answer is yes, then it begs the question of why one would use 3v at all. You are giving up wear resistance to gain what?

If the answer is no then this becomes interesting and I believe is the idea that Bodog (and I in older threads) was getting at. Could a 3v blade at .010" behind the edge withstand the same "work" as an s110v blade at .015"? (Just making up numbers to present a hypothetical)

Under equal forces, could a steel like 3v provide the same resistance to damage at a thinner grind than a steel like s110v? I think the question is really that simple. I don't think that question has anything to do with Cliff Stamp or Jim Ankerson. I also believe it is a very relevant question and could be one of the largest determining factors in selecting the appropriate blade steel and how a knife will ultimately perform as a cutting instrument. I know this sounds really remedial but if anyone is reading this and thinking "well yeah, duh!" then it might be worth considering why we have been dancing around the question for 5 pages beating our chests. This is a very simple and very important question to knife design is it not?
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I am not Chris, but I have also asked the very same question before a long time ago directly and got my answer, so based on that and my own testing I can give some insight.

The problem is the answer to the two questions is yes. (Not sure about the chopper, never seen one in S110V)

Both steels can be heat treated for either toughness or edge retention and or a balance between them.

That's where things start to get fuzzy.
 
bodog said:
I do believe, like James Terrio said, that 3V (though I don't want to sound like I'm claiming real life usage with it) and other closely related steels (that I have had at least some real world experience with) that can be made very hard and tough with some decent corrosion resistance thrown in would serve people better in most situations than steels that need to be made thicker in order to handle the same work load. That's a hypothesis based on my own experience with some of these steels and based on the words, research, and experience of people much more knowledgable than myself.
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I'm not so sure this is true in a broad sense. When we talk about "most people" its worth considering that maybe the average joe would never even notice the difference in toughness given what he does with a knife. It sounds like your knife usage is a bit more tough on an edge than many so it might seem like a bigger deal to you (and likely many others) than it does to most people. I'm not implying that its not important and that I would not want to know the results of this kind of testing...I absolutely would. I'm just not convinced that steels like s110v aren't "tough enough" for most folk's daily use...even in a thin grind.

I have a thinly ground fish cleaning knife in m4 that I have done some very heavy work with. I am a big fan of the balance of properties I get out of that steel, but truth be told I have punched through a lot of rib bones with cpm154 and s30v and haven't had any chipping issues. Now that does not mean that m4 isn't tougher...i expect it is. It just means that both seem to be tough enough for my daily work, even in a thin grind.

A bigger concern in my opinion is ease of sharpening. I have a bit tougher time getting some steels (s90v for example) to an extreme level of sharpness. I can get them there but the process is a bit more fussy and I don't really find the extra effort worth what I get in return. This is another reason I like m4. I find it much quicker to take it to those extreme levels and I give up nothing in edge retention while gaining toughness. Good stuff in my book.
 
Surfingringo said:
I'm not so sure this is true in a broad sense. When we talk about "most people" its worth considering that maybe the average joe would never even notice the difference in toughness given what he does with a knife. It sounds like your knife usage is a bit more tough on an edge than many so it might seem like a bigger deal to you (and likely many others) than it does to most people. I'm not implying that its not important and that I would not want to know the results of this kind of testing...I absolutely would. I'm just not convinced that steels like s110v aren't "tough enough" for most folk's daily use...even in a thin grind.

I have a thinly ground fish cleaning knife in m4 that I have done some very heavy work with. I am a big fan of the balance of properties I get out of that steel, but truth be told I have punched through a lot of rib bones with cpm154 and s30v and haven't had any chipping issues. Now that does not mean that m4 isn't tougher...i expect it is. It just means that both seem to be tough enough for my daily work, even in a thin grind.

A bigger concern in my opinion is ease of sharpening. I have a bit tougher time getting some steels (s90v for example) to an extreme level of sharpness. I can get them there but the process is a bit more fussy and I don't really find the extra effort worth what I get in return. This is another reason I like m4. I find it much quicker to take it to those extreme levels and I give up nothing in edge retention while gaining toughness. Good stuff in my book.
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Maybe I didn't word that correctly. I just meant that a knife that can be taken thinner and cut more efficiently and handle as much or more rough, even if accidental, knocks and dings would be easier for people to sharpen and use than a thicker knife that fractures or rolls as easily while also being thicker. Hell, I just typed this and I'm still not sure I said it right. There are definitely other steel classes that can work in specific situations, but maybe for most people they'd be happy with 3V or 4V ground into different geometries or thicknesses or with different hardnesses, unless they need high levels of corrosion resistance.

I'm not a big fishing guy but growing up when I did fish I'd stab the fish in the head prior to cleaning it. I don't know if that's common or not. I really don't remember how hard that is on a knife. I do remember breaking a fillet knife or two trying to do that, though, so I carried two knives in my tackle box, the fillet knife and a knife to stab through the head to kill the fish. Both were pieces of crap, I'm sure. My dad gave them to me when I was super young. Anyway, if you do that yourself, how do you do it? I'm simply curious at this point. If you wanted to, could you stab your M4 knife through a fish's head where with some other reputable steel couldn't do the same thing at the same thickness? Basically, is having one knife in M4 as good as having two knives in a lesser steel? I know it sounds a little silly but if I can get by with 1 knife instead of 2 more specialized ones, then I'm a happier man.
 
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Nah, no head stabbing. The fish are long dead by the time they hit the cleaning table. Even if they weren't an impact from a blunt instrument is much more effective than a knife in the brain...especially when you are trying to get a hot one in the boat. I do occasionally do that with a larger fish if I don't have a bat but it is not a "jack the ripper" stab. It is a slow surgical insertion into the cranial cavity and pretty much any steel would be capable of that without damage. I guess a 50lb+ fish could buck and break a more brittle blade but if that happened my bigger concern would be getting the hell away from a big flopping fish what a sharp knife sticking out of his head. Another reason why a bat is a better tool. :)

Also worth noting for this discussion, my fillet knife is cpm154 at 61rc. It can be bent/flexed 30-40 degrees (and likely more) while skinning without any issue. It also does LOTS of "stabbing" to puncture heavy skin and scales and will occasionally stab into soft rib bones. Some of these steels aren't nearly as "brittle" as we imagine.

....Not doubting any of the results you are getting from your usage, just sharing mine. :thumbup:
 
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BODOG,

There really isn't a direct 100% answer to the question you are asking, that's why you can't get the answer.

3V and 4V are tougher than S110V, that's known, but it doesn't cover the whole picture.

Start testing actual knife blades as in Customs that are purpose built and those steels will be a lot closer than most would actually believe.

And that's where the things get fuzzy and why there aren't any answers that are 100% correct 100% of the time.

Charpy Impact Testing is not the end all beat all guide to knife blades. ;)
 
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