Are you over Super Steels?

[Ankerson]

Sorry, but I agree with Bodog here. I have unfortunately had many S30V blades(not by choice) and the edges chip out fairly easily. Maybe not on paper or rope but when you start cutting into rougher stuff, the edge will chip like in bodogs pics. My ATS34/154cm and D2 blades did much better in cutting tougher materials. S30V is far from a super steel, though I consider it adequate in a folder, I would never EVER consider it for fixed blade. I remember the days before S30V and I sure wish I could go back to them sometimes.

Dunno man, I tested a number of different S30V blades over the years and pounded the hell out of a few of them cutting some really hard stuff and NONE of the edges ever looked like that.

Not even including my work knives in S30V that smacked steel every now and then, saw it roll some.

I do know more than some of the issues people had with S30V could be traced to sharpening issues if I remember correctly.

That said I do question the blade pictured, that's looking at it on a 32" monitor, something just doesn't add up, that's based on my own vast experience with S30V.

 

[marthinus]

S30V from a good company. It's not stupid thin, 15 degrees per side. That's not hard work that caused that. That was one day's worth of work cutting banana boxes, furniture boxes, and a can of condensed milk. If you've cut cans before they aren't really that hard on good blades made with a steel that's strong and tough. It's not outside the realm of possibility to need to open a can without a can opener. It's going to take me over an hour to bring this edge back because of the wear resistance and amount of fracturing and that's with a good stone where I can work quickly. Admittedly I care about nice even scratch patterns. Taking care of this edge would be worse out in the field somewhere. The work I mentioned wouldn't necessitate a thick prybar of a folding or fixed blade knife. It just needs a good strong steel that doesn't rip apart when being used on things that even cheap can openers can handle.

Increase your angle at the edge should resolve the issue.

I have had similar experience in different steels.

Here is CPM-M4 at 5 degrees per side.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1086828-CPM-M4-at-low-angles-My-experience-recently

 

[marthinus]

Back to "super steels"

I consider the process involved in creating a steel to determine if it is super or not.

Process and cleanliness.

Take a look into the process of producing a powdered metal alloy containing high amounts of Nitrogen.

 

[bodog]

Dunno man, I tested a number of different S30V blades over the years and pounded the hell out of a few of them cutting some really hard stuff and NONE of the edges ever looked like that.

Not even including my work knives in S30V that smacked steel every now and then, saw it roll some.

I do know more than some of the issues people had with S30V could be traced to sharpening issues if I remember correctly.

That said I do question the blade pictured, that's looking at it on a 32" monitor, something just doesn't add up, that's based on my own vast experience with S30V.

Ankerson, I don't call you a liar when your findings differ from mine. I realize that you simply do things differently, work with different stuff, and need different tools. If your experience with S30V has been so much better then I question what you really do with your knives, too, to claim some of the stuff yout claim. I don't have the audacity to really get into it in the open. Maybe you should step back and realize that other people use the same tools, in a valid and legitimate way, differently than you and need something different. You call everyone liars and whatnot when they come to different conclusions than you. You do it here and other places too. Please have enough respect to realize people need different tools and that not everyone needs the same thing as you. YMMV, your mileage may vary.

I don't believe you live too far from me, maybe we can meet up some day and do some side by side testing. I'd enjoy the learning experience, after all, maybe I'm doing something wrong. It seems like we like the same knife designs for the same reasons but with different types of steel for different reasons.

 

[bodog]

Increase your angle at the edge should resolve the issue.

I have had similar experience in different steels.

Here is CPM-M4 at 5 degrees per side.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1086828-CPM-M4-at-low-angles-My-experience-recently

Thanks for the advice. I'm keeping the edge at the angle sal glesser recommends. 15 dps isn't unreasonable for an edc pocket knife and a knife should be able to do most things at that angle. I do know that it's probably a little too acute for my uses but it's so damned hard to beat how well the knife normally zips right through what I normally cut at that angle.

i'm not putting the military down by any means, it's a great knife and I carry it pretty much daily. I'm saying a different steel would be better for my uses than high carbide stainless. I've found the same thing with other productions of the same steel and types of steel. S30V and other associated high carbide stainless steel isn't for everyone, no big deal, they're just tools. Some people like polymer gun frames, some people don't. Some men like women who stay at home and do nothing, some like women who work. It's the whole YMMV thing.

Thanks for showing what M4 does at a low angle. It's that kind of testing that makes this place great.

 

[JR88FAN]

Sorry, but I agree with Bodog here. I have unfortunately had many S30V blades(not by choice) and the edges chip out fairly easily. Maybe not on paper or rope but when you start cutting into rougher stuff, the edge will chip like in bodogs pics. My ATS34/154cm and D2 blades did much better in cutting tougher materials. S30V is far from a super steel, though I consider it adequate in a folder, I would never EVER consider it for fixed blade. I remember the days before S30V and I sure wish I could go back to them sometimes.

Agreed sadly....

I haven't used S30V in a long time and avoid it like the plague...

I have used it extensively on productions to "Mid-Tech's" and it is chippy steel, from my experience...

It does nothing well. Not a very good steel for ease of sharpening, does not hold an edge very well, and micro-chip mania...
The "chippy" nature is what kills it for me though.

I will take 154CM/CPM154 or even VG-10 over S30V all day.

Maybe I had 3-5 or so knives from different companies/makers with a less than optimal HT for S30?

Regardless, if the blade steel is S30V, I am not buying the knife, and that's meant not buying some knives I would have otherwise...

Your mileage may vary....maybe It's me?!
However, I have had zero issues with any other steel I have used...

 

[trevitrace]

...

How's the Terrio farm field trip panning out? I'm curious to hear your updated thoughts about forging vs. stock removal.

 

[bodog]

How's the Terrio farm field trip panning out? I'm curious to hear your updated thoughts about forging vs. stock removal.

Don't know what that has to do with the discussion at hand but I told him I'd love to have the opportunity to learn how to make a knife from him. Other than that nothing. If a steel is so clean that there's no grain then sure, grain direction doesn't matter because theres no wood grain type streaks running through the blade. If there is then the grain direction matters. Since we're talking about new quality steels then I'd hope there aren't many impurities to speak of and this subject is a little out of place. But thanks for bringing it up

 

[supergnat]

Besides my own fingers (that's a joke, btw), I cut maybe 3 or 4 things a day. I use my knives as tools when the opportunity presents itself, but my knives are mostly toys for me to distract myself with. As such, the merits of super steels are mostly lost on me. All I ask is that whatever steel the blade is made of be able to take a paper-slicing edge on the simple sharpening stones I have and hold it long enough to sharpen a pencil and open some boxes before the edge is lost.

I like to read about super steels because the discussions are often fascinating, but I don't worry about it when looking at knives.

 

[Cobalt]

Dunno man, I tested a number of different S30V blades over the years and pounded the hell out of a few of them cutting some really hard stuff and NONE of the edges ever looked like that.

Not even including my work knives in S30V that smacked steel every now and then, saw it roll some.

I do know more than some of the issues people had with S30V could be traced to sharpening issues if I remember correctly.

That said I do question the blade pictured, that's looking at it on a 32" monitor, something just doesn't add up, that's based on my own vast experience with S30V.

Jim, I don't doubt what you say, but my experience has been much different. As for that blade, it could have been the HT or it could have been a cooked edge from factory sharpening. who knows.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, I don't doubt what you say, but my experience has been much different. As for that blade, it could have been the HT or it could have been a cooked edge from factory sharpening. who knows.

Looks more like a sharpening issue to me personally.

That and defiantly overworked edge, looks like someone took one of those pull through sharpeners to it then tried to cut stuff with it.

 

[Ankerson]

Ankerson, I don't call you a liar when your findings differ from mine. I realize that you simply do things differently, work with different stuff, and need different tools. If your experience with S30V has been so much better then I question what you really do with your knives, too, to claim some of the stuff yout claim. I don't have the audacity to really get into it in the open. Maybe you should step back and realize that other people use the same tools, in a valid and legitimate way, differently than you and need something different. You call everyone liars and whatnot when they come to different conclusions than you. You do it here and other places too. Please have enough respect to realize people need different tools and that not everyone needs the same thing as you. YMMV, your mileage may vary.

I don't believe you live too far from me, maybe we can meet up some day and do some side by side testing. I'd enjoy the learning experience, after all, maybe I'm doing something wrong. It seems like we like the same knife designs for the same reasons but with different types of steel for different reasons.

Yeah, you might actually learn something and that's always a good thing.

Instead of the problem Stays Sharp referred to......

 

[Twindog]

Sorry, but I agree with Bodog here. I have unfortunately had many S30V blades(not by choice) and the edges chip out fairly easily. Maybe not on paper or rope but when you start cutting into rougher stuff, the edge will chip like in bodogs pics. My ATS34/154cm and D2 blades did much better in cutting tougher materials. S30V is far from a super steel, though I consider it adequate in a folder, I would never EVER consider it for fixed blade. I remember the days before S30V and I sure wish I could go back to them sometimes.

I've had S30V blades chip easily, too, mostly years ago when the steel was first coming out. Those problems were apparently part of the learning curve for a decent heat treat. S30V seems to be especially sensitive to a good heat treat. A lot of the early problems, according to knife makers at the time, were caused by an improper quench rate.

But done well, S30V is a great steel. I have a fixed blade in that steel made by Crusader Forge. It is an absolute beast. My first-production-run Rukus in S30V -- and now my EDC -- has never chipped. I really used it really hard in the beginning just to see if it, too, would chip. But it didn't.

Steels are complicated -- and when used in knives, steels are especially complicated by heat treat and geometry. And by a person's ability to sharpen. Lots to go wrong. I have and use some of the older steels, but the super steels, when done right and when used in the right application, are truly super.

 

[Cobalt]

I've had S30V blades chip easily, too, mostly years ago when the steel was first coming out. Those problems were apparently part of the learning curve for a decent heat treat. S30V seems to be especially sensitive to a good heat treat. A lot of the early problems, according to knife makers at the time, were caused by an improper quench rate.

But done well, S30V is a great steel. I have a fixed blade in that steel made by Crusader Forge. It is an absolute beast. My first-production-run Rukus in S30V -- and now my EDC -- has never chipped. I really used it really hard in the beginning just to see if it, too, would chip. But it didn't.

Steels are complicated -- and when used in knives, steels are especially complicated by heat treat and geometry. And by a person's ability to sharpen. Lots to go wrong. I have and use some of the older steels, but the super steels, when done right and when used in the right application, are truly super.

I would agree that my experience was from the steel in it's initial stages, so today it should be much better. But anyone who had the steel back in those days could have been soured by it like I was.

 

[Ankerson]

I would agree that my experience was from the steel in it's initial stages, so today it should be much better. But anyone who had the steel back in those days could have been soured by it like I was.

I was one of them too.

Hated S30V at 1st in the early production blades.

Then it got better once the makers figured it out.

 

[craytab]

Still wondering what you actually did with it, S30V can take quite a bit so for the edge to look that bad it took a lot of serious abuse to get it to that point.

The problem is not with the steel

I carry one of those too. Along with a prybar, a hammer, and some other goodies. So including my mandated tools that I have to carry, why would I need to use my knife so much? Because they're supposed to cut stuff and good ones will. Why were folding knives made? Because people find them easier to carry than a fixer blade.

You know what really sucks? Trying to clean up a leatherman when a can of soured, expired, sticky, coagulated condensed milk blows out of a hole you just created with that leatherman. You know what's easier? Rinsing off my knife.

Gotta love how these flame wars start.

So you carry a can opener but didn't use it. Right tool for the right job, right? Not only that you had two can openers! One on the SAK and one on your MT. So you would rather sharpen for an hour than clean a leather-man or a SAK? Not a lot is adding up here.

And yes, it is called a SAK. It has a can opener on it!

 

[Cobalt]

I was one of them too.

Hated S30V at 1st in the early production blades.

Then it got better once the makers figured it out.

Yeah, the same can be said for cpm3V. I had terrible experience with it. Edges chipping out on very light use. I am sure that in the last 3-4 years, this has changed. I hear so much good about 3V these days. But again, it is truly dependent on a proper HT and that can be screwed up even today.

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, the same can be said for cpm3V. I had terrible experience with it. Edges chipping out on very light use. I am sure that in the last 3-4 years, this has changed. I hear so much good about 3V these days. But again, it is truly dependent on a proper HT and that can be screwed up even today.

3V not properly done will chip like crazy, I have seen it happen personally.

If it's done right it's a good steel.

 

[Cobalt]

3V not properly done will chip like crazy, I have seen it happen personally.

If it's done right it's a good steel.

I would agree. But you know in the early days there was ferhmans chipping, my own customs chipping and other reports like that. Then GSO comes out with their knives lately with nothing but great reviews. So things have changed for sure

 

[Twindog]

And just to be fair, the heat treat on simple steels can be screwed up, too, making for very poor performance.