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Are you over Super Steels?
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Ankerson
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Most of it was the makers had to learn that they really don't have a lot of room for error (Almost none) with certain steels when heat treating.
So the good ones started getting better equipment to do their heat treating with and things started to get better.
james terrio
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That's true. The more complicated the chemistry, the more picky the alloy is about HT. You can't just heat 'em red hot with a torch and dunk 'em in used french fry oil like you can with 1084.
(well you could, but you're basically throwing away time and money if you do)Slightly off-topic, but that's also a big part of the final cost of blades made with "super" steels... it's not just the raw materials and processing and difficulty of machining/finishing. Some of these alloys require very high temperatures and a long time soaking at those temps to be hardened and tempered, preferably in atmosphere-controlled kilns. That ain't free...
So when people get to complaining about Knife X in Super ABC at 62Rc costing 30% more than the same knife in AUS8 at 56-58Rc, they need to remember that every single step along the way, there's additional expense and time and hassle involved. Very seldom is the maker or manu making any more money by upgrading a design. Which of course is why the vast majority of knives are made of mid-grade, easy-to-machine alloys at moderate hardnesses. The profit margins are much higher that way.
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That's true. The more complicated the chemistry, the more picky the alloy is about HT. You can't just heat 'em red hot with a torch and dunk 'em in used french fry oil like you can with 1084.
Slightly off-topic, but that's also a big part of the final cost of blades made with "super" steels... it's not just the raw materials and processing and difficulty of machining. Some of these alloys require very high temperatures and a long time soaking at those temps to be hardened and tempered, preferably in atmosphere-controlled kilns. That ain't free...
That's a good point that is often over looked in these types of discussions.
And is exactly why I never "got over" super steels. Never got into them in the first place!
If my AUS-8 or 5160 gets dinged, I can just sharpen it. And I am (like most people I assume), not far from a sharpener for any extended period of time.
That said, nothing wrong with chasing the new sexy steel on the block. I'm just not into it.
Ankerson
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That's true. The more complicated the chemistry, the more picky the alloy is about HT. You can't just heat 'em red hot with a torch and dunk 'em in used french fry oil like you can with 1084.
Slightly off-topic, but that's also a big part of the final cost of blades made with "super" steels... it's not just the raw materials and processing and difficulty of machining/finishing. Some of these alloys require very high temperatures and a long time soaking at those temps to be hardened and tempered, preferably in atmosphere-controlled kilns. That ain't free...
So when people get to complaining about Knife X in Super ABC at 62Rc costing 30% more than the same knife in AUS8 at 56-58Rc, they need to remember that every single step along the way, there's additional expense and time and hassle involved. Very seldom is the maker or manu making any more money by upgrading a design. Which of course is why the vast majority of knives are made of mid-grade, easy-to-machine alloys at moderate hardnesses. The profit margins are much higher that way.
Good equipment is expensive, it's not like buying a toaster oven as you well know and the temps have to be accurate or they are just wasting their time because the blades will be garbage.
And they have to be able to test the blades they are making during the process or they really don't know if it's right or not.
That's why I am very careful who I deal with.
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I love almost all steels for what they are. AUS8 is fantastic for its price point from certain manufacturers (think Ontario). 8cr has its place in my uses. I love me some "super steels" as well. I have a Tuff with a big old hunk of 3v in my pocket now (is that a super steel? Ah, who cares). M4 in my contego, M390 in the Bradfords I own, cts-204p in the 0562cf. Oddly enough, the steel I own the most of is AUS6, I have a bunch of old seki SOGs.
james terrio
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Nothing wrong with that at all. I love me some CPM steels and Elmax and other "sexy" stuff... but if I had to rely on AUS8 or 420HC or 1095 or 1084 with good HT, I wouldn't turn my nose up. Beats the heck out of a chipped rock
That's why I am very careful who I deal with.
Hear hear! I'm a big fan of Peters' HT myself :thumbup:
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When my M4 and M390 blades get dinged up I just sharpen them like my 1095 blades. Diamonds are cheap and make short work of any steel. I even have portable ones for extended fishing trips.
I am one of those permanently soured users of S30V as well. I finally (just this year) tested a knife in S30V that didn't stink, so they might be improving it. But with so many other great steels to choose from, why get burned again?
strategy9
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To bodog: I agree that increasing your angle on the s30v should certainly help. While I know 15°/per works great in the kitchen, and most folding Knives can perform well at that angle, the higher carbide level steels need some meat in the blade edge to hold all the hard carbides together. What you could be seeing is a result of not having enough steel in the edge to hold the carbides, and as the carbides are chipping out, those microchips are then getting progressively worse through more use? I'm not not saying for sure that is what it is, but could very well be a possibility... In my experience s30v and ELMAX perform better at a slightly higher angle allowing the carbides to do more of the work rather then the "steel".
I'm not a fan of "shaving sharp" Knives, in as much as I have straight razors to shave with, and much prefer a working edge on my Knives that can cut hair after sharpening (rather the "shave" it) but I can maintain that edge for a very very long time with simple stropping... As the name "working edge" suggests, its built for working and it works... They may not be "as" sharp, but they'll stay sharp longer since they won't wear as fast, and especially benefits steels like s30v and ELMAX and such with more hard carbides present, because it allows those carbides a more sturdy base to be embedded in, allowing them to do the cutting without chipping out (of a weaker base caused by less steel in a finer edge). Aside from my kitchen knives which i keep around 15°, and a select few of my more basic steels like sandvick or carbon tradionals which don't have the high carbide levels, Most all my pocket Knives, even most basic stainless varieties with their high level of softer carbides I try to keep at a ≈20° angle per side, (exact angle uncertain, might be 18 as I freehand with bench stones, and i don't check for exact degree but rather uniformity along the edge, but I know where 90 is, halved is 45, and 45 halved is 22.5, so that's my baseline and just a tad bit lower. Whereas for 15 i halve 22.5 to 11.25 and raise it just a bit, so if you're free handing without checking exacts, also maybe consider that your 15 is more like 13, and maybe raise it a bit?), but especially my s30v and ELMAX blades, they seem to benefit most from the higher angle because for the harder carbide content, and I've never seen chipping like that through basic work, and they'll still eat through cardboard all day, (though I haven't cut open any cans yet), and I rarely have to do much more then strop to maintain that edge for quite some time.
Just a string of thoughts on the matter though. Take it or leave it.
I'm not a fan of "shaving sharp" Knives, in as much as I have straight razors to shave with, and much prefer a working edge on my Knives that can cut hair after sharpening (rather the "shave" it) but I can maintain that edge for a very very long time with simple stropping... As the name "working edge" suggests, its built for working and it works... They may not be "as" sharp, but they'll stay sharp longer since they won't wear as fast, and especially benefits steels like s30v and ELMAX and such with more hard carbides present, because it allows those carbides a more sturdy base to be embedded in, allowing them to do the cutting without chipping out (of a weaker base caused by less steel in a finer edge). Aside from my kitchen knives which i keep around 15°, and a select few of my more basic steels like sandvick or carbon tradionals which don't have the high carbide levels, Most all my pocket Knives, even most basic stainless varieties with their high level of softer carbides I try to keep at a ≈20° angle per side, (exact angle uncertain, might be 18 as I freehand with bench stones, and i don't check for exact degree but rather uniformity along the edge, but I know where 90 is, halved is 45, and 45 halved is 22.5, so that's my baseline and just a tad bit lower. Whereas for 15 i halve 22.5 to 11.25 and raise it just a bit, so if you're free handing without checking exacts, also maybe consider that your 15 is more like 13, and maybe raise it a bit?), but especially my s30v and ELMAX blades, they seem to benefit most from the higher angle because for the harder carbide content, and I've never seen chipping like that through basic work, and they'll still eat through cardboard all day, (though I haven't cut open any cans yet), and I rarely have to do much more then strop to maintain that edge for quite some time.
Just a string of thoughts on the matter though. Take it or leave it.
Then I guess I'd ask why people are getting so upset when their super steels get dinged?
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Not over super steels in any way; Just the opposite, I can not get enough of them.
Today I am carrying a S30V knife I made and heat treated to 62 Rc, and yesterday I was carrying a CPM 10V knife of my making.
Tonight I will be using a S30V chef knife I made (also at 62) to prepare supper for my family.
I have knives in M4, 10V, 20CV, M390, 3V, 4V, S110V, S30V, CPM 154, Hitachi Blue #2, O1, and 1084 all in my shop at different levels of completion.
I personally have no desire to carry a "simple carbon steel" for my everyday tasks. I have yet to find one that will hold up as well to my day to day uses as well as any one of the powder steels. I optimize my knives for cutting, which is what a knife is supposed to do, with thin edges and high hardness. The powder steels hold up better in these circumstances, in my experience.
Everyone always talks about ease of sharpening. A 10V knife at 64 Rc and a .010" edge is not difficult to sharpen. I doubt that your Arkansas stone will sharpen it, but how many people only have a natural stone for edge maintenance? I personally have about 35 different stones to my disposal, everything from natural to diamonds as well as ceramic and SiC.
There is a reason that these "NEW" (10V has been around since the mid-late 70's) steels were developed and that is because the "OLD STANDBY" just wasn't "CUTTING IT" any longer.
Not all these steels were intended to be used for cutting tools either, most just excel at it as well as their intended purpose.
I do have a problem that I like steel and Super Steel is my favorite. I prefer powder steels and will use them 999 times out of 1000, but if I had to pick another steel to use it would be Hitachi Blue #2. Come to think of it Hitachi Blue #2 has added Chromium, Tungsten and Vanadium which could almost make it a super steel. I have been very impressed with the few knives I have made from it.
Today I am carrying a S30V knife I made and heat treated to 62 Rc, and yesterday I was carrying a CPM 10V knife of my making.
Tonight I will be using a S30V chef knife I made (also at 62) to prepare supper for my family.
I have knives in M4, 10V, 20CV, M390, 3V, 4V, S110V, S30V, CPM 154, Hitachi Blue #2, O1, and 1084 all in my shop at different levels of completion.
I personally have no desire to carry a "simple carbon steel" for my everyday tasks. I have yet to find one that will hold up as well to my day to day uses as well as any one of the powder steels. I optimize my knives for cutting, which is what a knife is supposed to do, with thin edges and high hardness. The powder steels hold up better in these circumstances, in my experience.
Everyone always talks about ease of sharpening. A 10V knife at 64 Rc and a .010" edge is not difficult to sharpen. I doubt that your Arkansas stone will sharpen it, but how many people only have a natural stone for edge maintenance? I personally have about 35 different stones to my disposal, everything from natural to diamonds as well as ceramic and SiC.
There is a reason that these "NEW" (10V has been around since the mid-late 70's) steels were developed and that is because the "OLD STANDBY" just wasn't "CUTTING IT" any longer.
Not all these steels were intended to be used for cutting tools either, most just excel at it as well as their intended purpose.
I do have a problem that I like steel and Super Steel is my favorite. I prefer powder steels and will use them 999 times out of 1000, but if I had to pick another steel to use it would be Hitachi Blue #2. Come to think of it Hitachi Blue #2 has added Chromium, Tungsten and Vanadium which could almost make it a super steel. I have been very impressed with the few knives I have made from it.
bodog
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Yeah man, you're 100% right. Not enough steel to support the edge. That's why I like the harder, tougher steels (new or not) rather than mucho carbide content. They can handle the better cutting geometry better. Thanks for the words, I agree wholeheartedly
strategy9
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Yeah, I mean, if you love the finer edges, 15° and such, and cannot get youself to budge, then certainly the higher (harder) carbide steels might not be best suited for you... Or you might need to invest in a very fine diamond stone and diamond pastes so you can effectively polish down those carbide into the fine edge, minimizing their effectiveness in the micro-saw edge that they ultimately create, but having that really sharp edge you love in spite of them...
If you do stick with the higher (harder) carbide steels, then you might just have to raise your angle a bit, and watch it impressively hold that 20° angle for days of normal use.
(Or maybe the heat treat was just bad on yours? Who really knows without truly examining and testing the steel properly?)
If you do stick with the higher (harder) carbide steels, then you might just have to raise your angle a bit, and watch it impressively hold that 20° angle for days of normal use.
(Or maybe the heat treat was just bad on yours? Who really knows without truly examining and testing the steel properly?)
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The steels choices that today's consumers have an option to buy is mind blowing. I'll never have to baton a Buick in half or cut 2k pieces of card board in one sitting but it's definitly cool to read and learn about the new alloys. All my knives are super steels. I have so many of them in my rotation, they never need sharpened. Makes you wonder what knife makers will be using in 5 years. Steel aside, I find myself more concerned with the ergonomics (in fixed blades) of a knife than anything.
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Have any of you guys ever actually experienced carbide tear out?
I hear about it all the time but I can't think of a single time where a chip occurred and I blamed it on carbide tear out. Most times when that happened I thought "oh, I should have not tried to chop that nail, fence wire, knot, bone, or concrete block." I use knives regularly that are under .010" for wood work or camp chores and have never experienced "carbide tear out". I am starting to think this is a newly made up phrase used by "haters" of high carbide steels to "hate" on high carbide high wear steels. I use these steels daily and have hundreds of knives out in use in these steels and am getting no such feedback from customers.
I hear about it all the time but I can't think of a single time where a chip occurred and I blamed it on carbide tear out. Most times when that happened I thought "oh, I should have not tried to chop that nail, fence wire, knot, bone, or concrete block." I use knives regularly that are under .010" for wood work or camp chores and have never experienced "carbide tear out". I am starting to think this is a newly made up phrase used by "haters" of high carbide steels to "hate" on high carbide high wear steels. I use these steels daily and have hundreds of knives out in use in these steels and am getting no such feedback from customers.
Ankerson
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Best post yet. And the smaller the carbides the less the angle which can be done?