RamZar
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Well, now you can get a full titanium handled Rexford design for under $200.
Worth repeating the above posts...
ZTs are UNDER-PRICED!
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Are ZT's overpriced?
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Worth repeating the above posts...
ZTs are UNDER-PRICED!
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CJZ
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For what they are, and counting the ones i've handled, (750, 0200, 350), I think they're well priced.
Very, very solid knives. Kershaw and ZT are among the few modern knife brands that I like the looks of.
Hopefully I can get my own ZT soon, looking at the 801.
Very, very solid knives. Kershaw and ZT are among the few modern knife brands that I like the looks of.
Hopefully I can get my own ZT soon, looking at the 801.
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I will be one to say that I don't know for sure if they are overpriced or not. I am more prone to lean towards the overpriced than not.
I am also a audiophile. I like good sounding speakers. I also have built several subwoofers for cars as well as home theater. I know what goes into a good subwoofer and how much the components cost. So I would ask for these knives, where does the cost come from?
The main cost from the actual product should be the steel I would imagine. I would also think that they have a supplier that gives great discounts when buying in bulk. So let's say, very loosely, that $5 goes into each blade. The remainder of materials would probably equal to the same again once over. So maybe $10. This isn't a terribly low estimate. It could be more than what they pay. Don't know. Add in all the business expenses per knife and you may double that price. So we are at $20. Sell it to a private company to sell at a 100% markup and we are up to $40. They do the same markup and they are at $80. For their cheapest knife we are under about $10-20.
Let's look at it another way. The 0200 vs the 560. From their website we are at $169 for the 200 and $299 for the 560. Is there that much more that goes into the 560 vs the 200? I know the steel is upgraded, but nearly twice the cost?
I am not questioning the quality or the products or techniques used in making the knives, only the final cost. I know they are superb knives and I plan on getting one some day. I just have trouble getting past the fact that a s30v Kershaw blur is about half the price of the 0200. Using the same steel and addition of assist opening. I know that the 0200 uses more steel but twice as much money's steel.
Going back again to my knowledge of audio equipment I know that some companies have a backing of customers and will have them because they are top quality items. They will continue to buy the new years offerings and not care about a small price increase. An example would be Wilson audio. They have speakers that start at around $10k and go up to well over $100k for a pair. Their subwoofers they offer, 2 of them, go from $10.5k to $15k. They are some of the finest speakers made today. Their lowest priced subwoofer has a 12" woofer and a 400 watt amp. A top of the line 12" subwoofer driver costs around $1000 on the user end. The amp goes for about the same. The cabinet is incredibly well built and by their own in house team. Let's say $1000 for it. We are over a 3x mark up for a name. There are other subwoofers that outperform that one at a fraction of the cost.
I am just wondering if we are paying for a name or if everything involved actually costs this much.
I am also a audiophile. I like good sounding speakers. I also have built several subwoofers for cars as well as home theater. I know what goes into a good subwoofer and how much the components cost. So I would ask for these knives, where does the cost come from?
The main cost from the actual product should be the steel I would imagine. I would also think that they have a supplier that gives great discounts when buying in bulk. So let's say, very loosely, that $5 goes into each blade. The remainder of materials would probably equal to the same again once over. So maybe $10. This isn't a terribly low estimate. It could be more than what they pay. Don't know. Add in all the business expenses per knife and you may double that price. So we are at $20. Sell it to a private company to sell at a 100% markup and we are up to $40. They do the same markup and they are at $80. For their cheapest knife we are under about $10-20.
Let's look at it another way. The 0200 vs the 560. From their website we are at $169 for the 200 and $299 for the 560. Is there that much more that goes into the 560 vs the 200? I know the steel is upgraded, but nearly twice the cost?
I am not questioning the quality or the products or techniques used in making the knives, only the final cost. I know they are superb knives and I plan on getting one some day. I just have trouble getting past the fact that a s30v Kershaw blur is about half the price of the 0200. Using the same steel and addition of assist opening. I know that the 0200 uses more steel but twice as much money's steel.
Going back again to my knowledge of audio equipment I know that some companies have a backing of customers and will have them because they are top quality items. They will continue to buy the new years offerings and not care about a small price increase. An example would be Wilson audio. They have speakers that start at around $10k and go up to well over $100k for a pair. Their subwoofers they offer, 2 of them, go from $10.5k to $15k. They are some of the finest speakers made today. Their lowest priced subwoofer has a 12" woofer and a 400 watt amp. A top of the line 12" subwoofer driver costs around $1000 on the user end. The amp goes for about the same. The cabinet is incredibly well built and by their own in house team. Let's say $1000 for it. We are over a 3x mark up for a name. There are other subwoofers that outperform that one at a fraction of the cost.
I am just wondering if we are paying for a name or if everything involved actually costs this much.
RamZar
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Your analogy and economic model are not sound.
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This one is going to be long winded...
Some time ago, I also thought many manufacturers were overpriced. BUT, then I started making my own knives, buying the materials, doing the work, paying for the HT, shipping, and now water jet cutting. That adds up very quick and you will be in the hole for THOUSANDS if you are not careful. Then, you have to HOPE people like your product enough to spend their hard earned money (even harder earned these days), on your knife.
To me, saying "That knife is overpriced", no matter what the price is, is a real insult to the maker. Reason is, you are saying peoples' WORK is not that valuable. If you don't like the price it would be better to say "Thats a nice piece of work, but, I won't pay that much for it" or "I can't afford that".
KAI takes a big risk with a lot of their projects since a lot of what they do is innovative, like the composites. Nobody as far as I know in the production class, makes composites the way they do. It is tough to do that on a large scale and still maintain high standards. Or what about the 777, which is a piece of knife engineering art. I don't know anyone who'd hard use that, but it was certainly a great achievement mass producing a custom style blade.
I personally favor heavily the basic US made kershaws. But, if you aren't willing to part with 100+ bucks, go with Kershaw, or even their Chinese made if you're not willing to part with 50 bucks.
You can see that Kershaw appreciates EVERY one of their customers because of their warranty. I have emailed them a few criticisms (worded positively), because I am a customer and I do buy their stuff and I'd like to see some different things from them. I got a kind response back. I get a MORE APPRECIATION from them than from any other knife company I ever contacted.
Finally, if you think their knives are over priced, go make something similar in quality with similar materials (this is what got me into knife making to begin with), and sell it for less. I can guarantee if you can match their quality and materials, if you personally worked on it, you won't want to sell it for less. Of course, money out of pocket MIGHT be less (since KAI purchases their materials in bulk, or machines some of it themselves, they save some money), but then, you're not calculating in the human factor of work, which to me is calculated in 2 ways, both priceless and determined by the guy who made the object.
Not only that, KAI has to actually make slightly more money because of their warranty. Every time a knife breaks (legitimately), it is money out of their pocket to replace.
WHEN I WAS LOOKING FOR A GOOD TITANIUM FOR A FOLDER, FOR THE SIZES I NEEDED, JUST THE PIECE OF TI (WITHOUT SHIPPING, FROM A WHOLESALER), WAS ABOUT $150...So yes, the 801 is a bargain...
@brandonnash - when I make knives, materials at HT services are the least of my costs. Shipping is by far the largest cost. When I don't ship, I still have to go to a place, spend the money for gas (which also adds up).
Some time ago, I also thought many manufacturers were overpriced. BUT, then I started making my own knives, buying the materials, doing the work, paying for the HT, shipping, and now water jet cutting. That adds up very quick and you will be in the hole for THOUSANDS if you are not careful. Then, you have to HOPE people like your product enough to spend their hard earned money (even harder earned these days), on your knife.
To me, saying "That knife is overpriced", no matter what the price is, is a real insult to the maker. Reason is, you are saying peoples' WORK is not that valuable. If you don't like the price it would be better to say "Thats a nice piece of work, but, I won't pay that much for it" or "I can't afford that".
KAI takes a big risk with a lot of their projects since a lot of what they do is innovative, like the composites. Nobody as far as I know in the production class, makes composites the way they do. It is tough to do that on a large scale and still maintain high standards. Or what about the 777, which is a piece of knife engineering art. I don't know anyone who'd hard use that, but it was certainly a great achievement mass producing a custom style blade.
I personally favor heavily the basic US made kershaws. But, if you aren't willing to part with 100+ bucks, go with Kershaw, or even their Chinese made if you're not willing to part with 50 bucks.
You can see that Kershaw appreciates EVERY one of their customers because of their warranty. I have emailed them a few criticisms (worded positively), because I am a customer and I do buy their stuff and I'd like to see some different things from them. I got a kind response back. I get a MORE APPRECIATION from them than from any other knife company I ever contacted.
Finally, if you think their knives are over priced, go make something similar in quality with similar materials (this is what got me into knife making to begin with), and sell it for less. I can guarantee if you can match their quality and materials, if you personally worked on it, you won't want to sell it for less. Of course, money out of pocket MIGHT be less (since KAI purchases their materials in bulk, or machines some of it themselves, they save some money), but then, you're not calculating in the human factor of work, which to me is calculated in 2 ways, both priceless and determined by the guy who made the object.
Not only that, KAI has to actually make slightly more money because of their warranty. Every time a knife breaks (legitimately), it is money out of their pocket to replace.
WHEN I WAS LOOKING FOR A GOOD TITANIUM FOR A FOLDER, FOR THE SIZES I NEEDED, JUST THE PIECE OF TI (WITHOUT SHIPPING, FROM A WHOLESALER), WAS ABOUT $150...So yes, the 801 is a bargain...
@brandonnash - when I make knives, materials at HT services are the least of my costs. Shipping is by far the largest cost. When I don't ship, I still have to go to a place, spend the money for gas (which also adds up).
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I wouldn't say they are over priced for what you are getting, but personally I can't see spending much over $150 for a production knife. I can get a good non-production knife from small shop knife makers for that much and it will be completely different than anybody else's. But, that is just my personal preference. I like that Dave sells ZT blems, that way I can get a great production knife at a price I am willing to pay.
Shaun
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An individual making single or even a multiple run of anything of matching quality and comparing pricing to a company who mass produces will never be able to match pricing.
When I was using the analogy of speakers/subwoofers I was using end user pricing for the components, not the bulk direct from manufacturer prices that businesses have. That actually makes it seem even more overprices if you find that the piece of steel they actually use costs a dollar or less.
Shipping isn't a valid argument. Every knife maker ships. Whether its your Chinese flea market brands that cost $5 at the end or a smith and Wesson with a $20 price tag or a zt with a $300 tag. The weight involved is ounces. I have dealt with shipping large speaker boxes (200-300 lbs) and that can get pricey. Shipping a 5 oz cheap knife costs exactly the same as shipping a 5 oz expensive knife.
And once again, because of my involvement in high end audio I understand why people pay a lot more than what your average Joe on the street does for a quality piece. I just get wary when I see a higher price tag when something similar costs a great deal less.
When I was using the analogy of speakers/subwoofers I was using end user pricing for the components, not the bulk direct from manufacturer prices that businesses have. That actually makes it seem even more overprices if you find that the piece of steel they actually use costs a dollar or less.
Shipping isn't a valid argument. Every knife maker ships. Whether its your Chinese flea market brands that cost $5 at the end or a smith and Wesson with a $20 price tag or a zt with a $300 tag. The weight involved is ounces. I have dealt with shipping large speaker boxes (200-300 lbs) and that can get pricey. Shipping a 5 oz cheap knife costs exactly the same as shipping a 5 oz expensive knife.
And once again, because of my involvement in high end audio I understand why people pay a lot more than what your average Joe on the street does for a quality piece. I just get wary when I see a higher price tag when something similar costs a great deal less.
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I really dont know how you are coming up with your prices as far as how much knife materials cost and what a final product costs a maker. I can assure you though that no amount of expertise in audio equipment is going to give you insight into this. The two topics are so far off from each other the logic you present will never add up. Your looking at what raw materials will cost. Not the whole picture. With a knife, especially one from a big corporation you have many factors regarding the price of the product.
Here are some but surely no limited to
1. Product R&D
2. Raw materials
3. Prepping raw materials for use in manufacturing
4. Cost of actual machining
5. Cost of finishing
6. Final assembly and quality control
7. The salaries of every single employee in that chain
8. Set backs that equate to losses and waste
9. Profit margin
Now I know what your thinking. Your not allowed to add profit margin into the cost of manufacturing. Why not? It is an essential component needed to allow a company to produce its products. Without profit their is no sustainability. With no sustainability there are no products. The biggest factors that I can see adding to the cost of a product are going to be all the things BESIDES raw materials. Raw materials are nothing. And while there may not be a HUGE cost difference between certain blanks of steel to another the ability to be machined, heat treat process and its ease of finishing drive up the price rather quickly. We arent talking about a stamped or cast frame of a subwoofer that is going to be rough cast and powder coated. It is a tool of which a certain performance is expected especially when its a tool that lives will potentially be depended upon. Its easy for us as consumers (even those with manufacturing experience) and miss many of the key components that will drive price. There are some knives that have more profit than others. But I think if there is one company who keeps their reality in check. When a product from them costs more money its usually because you get that much more.
As to your comparison of the 0200 and the 0560 you might as well be comparing a best buy power acoustic sub to a Critical mass carbon woofer. You seem to not feel there is that much more that goes into a 0560 than a 0200. This really only shows how little you have thought about this whole concept. The biggest difference here being the titanium frame. Not only is titanium more expensive to begin with it is a absolute PITA to machine and machine with a decent fit and finish. That combined with the upgraded blade steel yes its going to equate to double the price.
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Keep in mind this is speculation. I don't work for KAI so I can't really say this is 100 percent accurate.
Where do the costs come from?
- The cost of materials
- The power that it's takes to run the machinary
- The cost of the tooling (end mills, ball mills, drill bits, ect)
- The cost to pay the people that run the machinery
- the cost of assembly
And I'm sure they're more things I'm not thinking about. You have to pay for all of these things and still make a profit by selling the product that is made. I would guess the cost of manufacturing is much more than the price of materials.
The basic anger is answer is yes. Lets compare the two:
0560/0561
- G10
- Titanium
- Elmax
- Stainless
0200
- G10
- 154-CM
- Stainless
Not considering the stand offs and hardware (which I assume are stainless) these are the main materials. to start with the elmax and titanium will cost more (I assume) than G10 and 154-CM. also titanium will wear out drill bits and other tooling faster than G10. the the machining pattern on the 0560/0561 is more complicated than the 0200. You also have to acount for the bearings which add extra work.
The handle materials would be a large part of this in my opinion. The blade material is more expensive in the blur (I think) the aluminum will cost much less than the G10 and the machining involved is more complex. That being said the blur is an amazing value!
While some of the newer ZTs are more expensive, the old models are still the same price and the newer models are using more expensive materials and more complex designs.
I think you get what you pay for. I also think KAI makes an amazing knife for a reasonable price. Whether or not it's worth it is up to you.
have a good day! ~Kirby P.S
There's only one space after a period.
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I'm not talking about shipping to customers. I am talking about buying my steel, shipping it to me or to be cut or to an from HT. Some companies have to do this minimally. But, this is the same reason it isn't cost effective to buy a US produced steel and send it to China to be assembled.
If you're talking in hundred of lbs, clearly, you aren't understanding that, I am sure Kershaw probably run in the TONs, per year for steels like 14C28N. How do I know? I have contacted manufacturers when I tried to get rock bottom pricing on steel. They almost always have a minimum order amount. When I wanted some 1080CV, I needed to buy like 2 tons of it before they'd even talk to me.
They always ask "What is your annual consumption of steel"? If it isn't measured in tons, then it is goodbye...It is the same reason why makers like ESEE or Ka-Bar don't switch steels often, for one, they have a solid supply of a good material, why do they need to change?
So in any case, shipping to the factory is expensive and not counted in hundreds of dollars...
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ZT is not the Wilson Audio of knives. Kai is like the Paradigm of knives, where Kershaw is the monitor series, ZT would most closely represent the studio series, and only the ZT0777, with secondary market values, the Signature Series. All representing good bang for the buck. There will always be a law of diminishing returns. Does a monitor series not play music well? Does a Kershaw not cut well? Does a Studio series sound better? Sure, but how much better 10-25% better? Does a ZT look a little better? Fit in the hand a little better and hold an edge a little longer? Now, you're paying twice as much for a 10-25% improvement. Does that make sense? To me, yes absolutely! To some no, but they're not knife nuts (audiophiles).
If that is what you want and you have compared other knives (speakers) in the same price range and you like these the best then they aren't overpriced no matter how the law of diminishing returns affects your choice.
I grabbed some excellent pioneer speakers for the computer, designed by the guy who designs Theil, at 100 bucks a pair and for that they sound great! They don't sound as good as my PSBs but they sound 80% as good. Did I get ripped off by getting my PSB T65s at a huge sale price of 1200 a pair, and they only sound 25% better than the 100 dollar Pioneers? Nope..... That 25% improvement comes at a great cost. I couldn't find any speakers that sounded as good for the price at the time (not even close really) than those so I am happy.
I own a couple ZTs and I don't see a knife or knife brand that represents the higher dollar production market better than ZT. Can I get 80% the knife at less than half the cost? Yup.... actually by Kershaw themselves! But can I get a better knife for the same money? I don't think so personally and that is why I've been through a ton of knives and ZT is by far, my favorite production knife company! Period.
Now if I could just find the Seaton Sound or JTR of the knife world I would pick that up in a heart beat!
PS, If you don't know audio this post won't make much sense, but if you do I think it might.
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It makes perfect sense to me. I will get a better reply in after work, but on the audio side you should check out Danley speakers also. Incredible sound but it also comes with a price tag. I know where their money goes in something like this.
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Well, I'm currently reading Radical Abundance by K. Eric Drexler and was trying to imagine macro-level machines made out of nano-machines, and found that I just couldn't come up with anything. So instead, since I'm currently into knives, it occurred to me that it looks like you could assemble blades and handles using nanomechanical means to have the same properties as metal, but without using any metal, using carbon instead. You could also make handles and blades to extremely high tolerances (a few molecular widths) and ensure not only that they didn't rust, but that they repaired themselves when damaged. Or you could design and build a knife blade that sharpens itself as it's being used. Stuff like that boggles the mind, but it's coming.
A whole factory for producing knives would be the size of a small desk. And not just knives, but practically anything on the scale of hand tools up to automobiles. I'm not sure how close we are to this stuff, but surely not more than a generation, and possibly much closer than that. So the whole way we now look at manufactured products will change.
A whole factory for producing knives would be the size of a small desk. And not just knives, but practically anything on the scale of hand tools up to automobiles. I'm not sure how close we are to this stuff, but surely not more than a generation, and possibly much closer than that. So the whole way we now look at manufactured products will change.
RamZar
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My ZT 0801 ($192) compares favorably with my Wilson Combat Eagle ($525). ZT knives are high-valued and under-priced. More under-priced is when you allow the supplies to go past the demand. For instance, the ZT 0550 which has an MSRP of $250 and a MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) of $200 can be had for around $150-$160 for a brand new one now. That's only because the 0550 has been around for quite a while. Eventually, I'll be able to get my second 0801 for around $150 but that probably won't be until sometime next year.
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Or an all titanium handled Sibenza. Pretty interesting trend, and it's going to get even better.
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All the things you mention go into a speaker manufacturer's costs and what the end price will be.
I don't know much about the cost of materials used to make knives. I admit that. But the cost they have for materials is vastly less expensive than what we would pay.
I am also very aware that a company like zt/Kershaw is not making knives to hand out to the needy out of the goodness of their hearts. I realize they have to make a profit. Maybe I am just not as willing to accept the prices that other people are at face value. I am very skeptical about anything that costs a premium over other like products and often wonder why they cost so much.
I will use a different model that is widely accepted in the audio world. Bose speakers. The majority of people on this forum are familiar with this company. They are Wiley regarded by the common listener as a good company and their products are well worth the money they ask. I know what they use in their components and how cheaply their stuff is put together. A $600 set of speakers is put together with molded plastic, speaker wire that would cost me, the end user, about 50 cents, and drivers that cost around $2 each. Their product cost for an entire set is around $12-15. They do use a lot of money for advertising, very little on research and development, and are very cunning on their ways of marketing their speakers as some of the best in the world when actually they are not. Far from it. I know the difference here is that zt is a quality product. I will not deny that at all. What I am posing that no one can seem to produce is actual numbers on what goes into a zt product. if it turned out that your 560 costs Kershaw $12 to make would you feel ripped off? I thing most here would. I would hate to find out that a $300 knife is $12 in product and $288 in profit. I am not saying that's the case, just posing a what if.
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