Are ZT's overpriced?

[brandonnash]

Keep in mind this is speculation. I don't work for KAI so I can't really say this is 100 percent accurate.



Where do the costs come from?

• The cost of materials
• The power that it's takes to run the machinary
• The cost of the tooling (end mills, ball mills, drill bits, ect)
• The cost to pay the people that run the machinery
• the cost of assembly

And I'm sure they're more things I'm not thinking about. You have to pay for all of these things and still make a profit by selling the product that is made. I would guess the cost of manufacturing is much more than the price of materials.



The basic anger is answer is yes. Lets compare the two:

0560/0561

• G10
• Titanium
• Elmax
• Stainless

0200

• G10
• 154-CM
• Stainless

Not considering the stand offs and hardware (which I assume are stainless) these are the main materials. to start with the elmax and titanium will cost more (I assume) than G10 and 154-CM. also titanium will wear out drill bits and other tooling faster than G10. the the machining pattern on the 0560/0561 is more complicated than the 0200. You also have to acount for the bearings which add extra work.



The handle materials would be a large part of this in my opinion. The blade material is more expensive in the blur (I think) the aluminum will cost much less than the G10 and the machining involved is more complex. That being said the blur is an amazing value!



While some of the newer ZTs are more expensive, the old models are still the same price and the newer models are using more expensive materials and more complex designs.



I think you get what you pay for. I also think KAI makes an amazing knife for a reasonable price. Whether or not it's worth it is up to you. have a good day! ~Kirby

P.S
There's only one space after a period.

I was taught in typing class to use double spacing after periods. Have been doing so for around 20 years and if that's the incorrect way I will just be hard headed and continue doing so.

 

[HSC ///]

I was taught in typing class to use double spacing after periods. Have been doing so for around 20 years and if that's the incorrect way I will just be hard headed and continue doing so.

I was in the same typing class as you, and I'm with you, I'm going to keep using 2 spaces after a period.
I'm guessing you are in your early 40's like me.

 

[KnottyEagle]

I was taught in typing class to use double spacing after periods. Have been doing so for around 20 years and if that's the incorrect way I will just be hard headed and continue doing so.

Who in the hell taught you that? Nothing against you, but I've never heard that before in my life.

 

[9blades]

I was taught in typing class to use double spacing after periods. Have been doing so for around 20 years and if that's the incorrect way I will just be hard headed and continue doing so.

So was I, but I'm only 14 haha...I was just pointing it out, it's a common mistake and somthing that doesn't really matter.

 

[JuJu-]

All the things you mention go into a speaker manufacturer's costs and what the end price will be.

I don't know much about the cost of materials used to make knives. I admit that. But the cost they have for materials is vastly less expensive than what we would pay.

I am also very aware that a company like zt/Kershaw is not making knives to hand out to the needy out of the goodness of their hearts. I realize they have to make a profit. Maybe I am just not as willing to accept the prices that other people are at face value. I am very skeptical about anything that costs a premium over other like products and often wonder why they cost so much.

I will use a different model that is widely accepted in the audio world. Bose speakers. The majority of people on this forum are familiar with this company. They are Wiley regarded by the common listener as a good company and their products are well worth the money they ask. I know what they use in their components and how cheaply their stuff is put together. A $600 set of speakers is put together with molded plastic, speaker wire that would cost me, the end user, about 50 cents, and drivers that cost around $2 each. Their product cost for an entire set is around $12-15. They do use a lot of money for advertising, very little on research and development, and are very cunning on their ways of marketing their speakers as some of the best in the world when actually they are not. Far from it. I know the difference here is that zt is a quality product. I will not deny that at all. What I am posing that no one can seem to produce is actual numbers on what goes into a zt product. if it turned out that your 560 costs Kershaw $12 to make would you feel ripped off? I thing most here would. I would hate to find out that a $300 knife is $12 in product and $288 in profit. I am not saying that's the case, just posing a what if.

Look at what other knife companies like bm and spyder are putting out then look at the kershaws and zt's. I'm pretty sure you will see they are more than comparable and a bargain compared to a lot of what's out there production wise.

You will not get an answer about what it costs because kai has set forth the rules that those kinds of thing are not ever going to be discussed. Read the stickies at the top and stay away from the statements like that, they are frowned upon here.

 

[PURPLEDC]

All the things you mention go into a speaker manufacturer's costs and what the end price will be.

I don't know much about the cost of materials used to make knives. I admit that. But the cost they have for materials is vastly less expensive than what we would pay.

I am also very aware that a company like zt/Kershaw is not making knives to hand out to the needy out of the goodness of their hearts. I realize they have to make a profit. Maybe I am just not as willing to accept the prices that other people are at face value. I am very skeptical about anything that costs a premium over other like products and often wonder why they cost so much.

I will use a different model that is widely accepted in the audio world. Bose speakers. The majority of people on this forum are familiar with this company. They are Wiley regarded by the common listener as a good company and their products are well worth the money they ask. I know what they use in their components and how cheaply their stuff is put together. A $600 set of speakers is put together with molded plastic, speaker wire that would cost me, the end user, about 50 cents, and drivers that cost around $2 each. Their product cost for an entire set is around $12-15. They do use a lot of money for advertising, very little on research and development, and are very cunning on their ways of marketing their speakers as some of the best in the world when actually they are not. Far from it. I know the difference here is that zt is a quality product. I will not deny that at all. What I am posing that no one can seem to produce is actual numbers on what goes into a zt product. if it turned out that your 560 costs Kershaw $12 to make would you feel ripped off? I thing most here would. I would hate to find out that a $300 knife is $12 in product and $288 in profit. I am not saying that's the case, just posing a what if.

Well bose stuff to me you surely pay a premium for the name. I dont quite think ZT is there yet. If anything they offer a value that some other makers dont. Take chris reeves knives for instance. Impeccable tolerances. Yet the tolerances of ZT and Kershaws might not be up to the standards of a Chris reeve they are still good enough for 90% of all human beings. And the last 10% of people will need a set of calipers to spot the tolerance differences. So for me a chris reeve knife is not worth $300 more than a comparable ZT if I need to use a fine instrument of measure to spot the differences. If you compare ZT to any other brand out there, I dont think anyone is producing products to the standard they are at the price they are doing it. And maybe most important of all right here in the USA.

Comparing what audio products cost to manufacture I felt wasnt fair because you are talking about a product that is made from relatively inexpensive materials by machines with limited need for human involvement. Of course this will vary depending on price range and whether the stuff is consumer grade or handmade audiophile stuff. Basically all im trying to say is that we can sit here and try to say that these products are overpriced but in reality we dont have any true understanding of just how much money goes into the product and more importantly HOW it factors in. Do I think that a 0560 costs $150 to make realistically? No. but im just saying there is more to the equation that just the cost of manufacture. So I think the term "overpriced" is relative.

Lets say only 20% of the money you pay for a product is what it actually costs to manufacture the product. Does it mean its overpriced? What do most people feel is an acceptable percentage? I simply dont know. I cant begin to pretend that I know how much a 0560 really costs to make. And honestly if all of us did know we may just think its "overpriced". But that would probably be largely due to our lack of understanding of what it takes to keep a business a float in a competitive market like this where most are looking to china to get it done cost effectively. We see it as "hey, it only cost you $30 to make that knife and your shafting me with $250?!?!?! when in reality its way way more complicated than that. And it extends way past the cost of raw materials.

In many instances I am like you. I struggle with if companies are telling me the truth and how much of it. But Its kinda a situation where knowing the truth might do more harm than good. Because knowing something is not the same as understanding something. And its that understanding that is critical to your perception of a given reality.

A perfect example of skewed perception of reality is your math. A $300 knife costing them $12 in materials to make doesnt mean there is $288 profit. because there is an exchange of hands before the product gets to you. There is dealer profit, Manufacturer profit and then company expenditures that eat into that profit which have to be accounted for. Again, knowing isnt understanding.

 

[HSC ///]

So was I, but I'm only 14 haha...I was just pointing it out, it's a common mistake and somthing that doesn't really matter.

I know I'll be thrown out for hijacking this thread... lol
but I'm not making this stuff up...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing

"The double space typewriter convention was taught in schools in typing classes, and that remains the practice in many cases"
"Many people prefer double sentence spacing for informal use because that was how they were taught to type."

http://www.fonts.com/content/learni...s?siteId=2c670c80-4121-4446-893f-d7fe9690be92

more than you ever wanted to know

 

[NeverMore1701]

I'm 28 and double space after the end of a sentence.

 

[Fanglekai]

Under MLA guidelines you can use either a single or double space. http://www.mla.org/style/style_faq/mlastyle_spaces

 

[brandonnash]

I'm not talking about shipping to customers. I am talking about buying my steel, shipping it to me or to be cut or to an from HT. Some companies have to do this minimally. But, this is the same reason it isn't cost effective to buy a US produced steel and send it to China to be assembled.

If you're talking in hundred of lbs, clearly, you aren't understanding that, I am sure Kershaw probably run in the TONs, per year for steels like 14C28N. How do I know? I have contacted manufacturers when I tried to get rock bottom pricing on steel. They almost always have a minimum order amount. When I wanted some 1080CV, I needed to buy like 2 tons of it before they'd even talk to me.

They always ask "What is your annual consumption of steel"? If it isn't measured in tons, then it is goodbye...It is the same reason why makers like ESEE or Ka-Bar don't switch steels often, for one, they have a solid supply of a good material, why do they need to change?

So in any case, shipping to the factory is expensive and not counted in hundreds of dollars...

I am familiar with what kind of shipping goes into a final product. I also know that Gerber or smith and Wesson or any other cheaper knife makers incur the same kind of shipping costs.

The bulk pricing, whether its in lbs, hundreds of lbs, or tons just goes toward a cheaper per item cost on the makers end.

One thing I have learned from the reading I have done on here that to make a high end knife it ends up being much more expensive than just going and buying one. In audio most times that isn't the case. You can diy a subwoofer that will outperform a manufacturer's sub probably 95% of the time at roughly the same cost or for a substantial savings.

Once again, I am not trying to pick a fight and I am not flat out saying that zt over prices their products. I don't know. I just think people on here don't want to think its a possibility that they may have paid too much and they have blinders on to the thought of such.

I could be completely wrong about this and I hope I am. I want to buy some of their knives at some point. I would just be less prone to so if I found out they were making 500-1000% profit on a knife.

 

[KnottyEagle]

I now officially think double spacing after a period is stupid. :grumpy:

 

[Pharmagator]

back to topic...

I have an XM-24 - and the ZT 560 compares very favorably...

I have several custom flippers, and the ZT 0777 is equal in every way (and better in some)

I have the original Volt, and Speedform and they seem to be the foundation for the current high-end ZT's ....

I consider the ZT line to be very fairly priced...

I buy a lot of Spyderco... the funny thing is that their US produced knives are often less expensive than their other models...

I would pay $140.00 for a Spyderco Military any day of the week... for EDC and moderate hard use...

I would pay $360.00 for a ZT 560CBCF any day of the week... but I am less likely to EDC these... more for the collection...

So, as an owner of over 60 ZT knives... I think they are priced perfectly!

 

[brandonnash]

I was in the same typing class as you, and I'm with you, I'm going to keep using 2 spaces after a period.
I'm guessing you are in your early 40's like me.

Close. Mid 30s. And yeah it was a freshman typing class.

Who in the hell taught you that? Nothing against you, but I've never heard that before in my life.

Was how I was taught in class. Back when we had typewriters. They went "ding". Had a real bell and everything.

So was I, but I'm only 14 haha...I was just pointing it out, it's a common mistake and somthing that doesn't really matter.

Its something I just looked up and it's apparently still debated. Believe me, I am all for shortcuts if they are reasonable. I have just typed literally millions of words in my life and a learned habit like that, whether correct or incorrect, is a hard one to break.

I know I'll be thrown out for hijacking this thread... lol
but I'm not making this stuff up...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing

"The double space typewriter convention was taught in schools in typing classes, and that remains the practice in many cases"
"Many people prefer double sentence spacing for informal use because that was how they were taught to type."

http://www.fonts.com/content/learni...s?siteId=2c670c80-4121-4446-893f-d7fe9690be92

more than you ever wanted to know

See, I am not entirely crazy.

I'm 28 and double space after the end of a sentence.

At least I am not the last one taught that.

Under MLA guidelines you can use either a single or double space. http://www.mla.org/style/style_faq/mlastyle_spaces

Motion seconded and carried. Two spaces I will continue to use.

 

[JuJu-]

I could be completely wrong about this and I hope I am. I want to buy some of their knives at some point. I would just be less prone to so if I found out they were making 500-1000% profit on a knife.

So you don't own one and have zero experience with the company? How can you have any perspective on the question asked then? If you think Zt is or could be overpriced I suggest you don't look past the gas station counter because by that sentiment all the big names are "overpriced". Maybe blade forums isn't the place for you?

 

[metsfan]

I was taught in typing class to use double spacing after periods. Have been doing so for around 20 years and if that's the incorrect way I will just be hard headed and continue doing so.

Same here. Still double space after every sentence...I feel weird if I single space.

 

[brandonnash]

So you don't own one and have zero experience with the company? How can you have any perspective on the question asked then? If you think Zt is or could be overpriced I suggest you don't look past the gas station counter because by that sentiment all the big names are "overpriced". Maybe blade forums isn't the place for you?

I don't own one but do have experience with them. I have a friend that has a couple and I could tell from the first time I handled one that they're a good product. But truth be told, when comparing products made of the same or similar materials wouldn't a subjective opinion be of more value than one of the masses who are pro said product?

 

[JuJu-]

I don't own one but do have experience with them. I have a friend that has a couple and I could tell from the first time I handled one that they're a good product. But truth be told, when comparing products made of the same or similar materials wouldn't a subjective opinion be of more value than one of the masses who are pro said product?

When go to look at a review do you look for a first time reviewer or someone that's had some experience and is respected?

 

[brandonnash]

I would like a reviewer with experience, but one also that would not let personal feelings for a product skew his review. I have seen too many products that were in fact terrible get good reviews because of previous products.

This is how I would like a product review. This isn't what we are debating here though. I completely concur with all here that the make a good product. The question is whether they are overpriced. I am not saying for a certainty that they are or are not, but I won't be floored if someday a former employee releases info saying they grossly overprice the product or if he says they are a great company that offers fair and competitive pricing given the costs and work that go into the product. I also will accept if the employee says they are the best value of any bladed instrument around.

 

[ElConquistador]

Wow! Did someone compare KAI to Bose?? Now this thread is going to get closed for sure.



By the way, it's two spaces at the end of a sentence (I know either way is correct but I'm sticking to my guns). At least that what I was taught, not a typewriter that went "Ding" or had a bell... ...It was an IBM Selectric, we were high-tech. Learning on a typewriter really makes you appreciate a word processor, do you remember foot notes, white out, formatting? Ughh!

 

[brandonnash]

Wow! Did someone compare KAI to Bose?? Now this thread is going to get closed for sure.



By the way, it's two spaces at the end of a sentence (I know either way is correct but I'm sticking to my guns). At least that what I was taught, not a typewriter that went "Ding" or had a bell... ...It was an IBM Selectric, we were high-tech. Learning on a typewriter really makes you appreciate a word processor, do you remember foot notes, white out, formatting? Ughh!

Not comparing the quality to Bose. Zt is good stuff. Bose blows. Just giving an example of how a company can use a certain level of components to reach an end product that is much more expensive and shouldn't be.