When I first learned my trade we used to use those carborundum stones to cut faster but soon those were replaced by the DMT diamond bench stones, an improvement.
I’m curious, what are the reed cutting knives like? What angles do you use? how are they used (I know absulutly nothing about this art)
Have you ever tried the Fine India Stone?
Yes, I have both fine and course India at home, although I usually just use the med OR fine India (depending on edge condition) and then the Arkansas. I find that going to the fine India after the medium doesn’t cut down on the time it takes to finish on the Arkansas enough to make me want to use it / clean it. I always carry the med India, because allot of times when I'm not at home I sharpen other peoples knives, witch typically need the med India (or MUCH more). I don’t use the course India much because it clogs quickly, if it’s that level of dull I'll use a waterstone. That Frictionite stone sounds cool, its about the size of my slipstones (my arkansas is 4 X 2 X 3/8 X 1/8, I used to have a matching india, but I cant find eather in that size anymore
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I looked into getting a duplicate Norton (6")and it was over $100
Where did you see that? I’m assuming that’s 6” length? They have a 8 X 3 X 1/2 norton translucent here for $75, black for $90
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/...&Product_Code=NO-WIDEOIL.XX&Category_Code=THO
Is it a specialty stone? Or a specialty supplier? That might explain the price.
I find that the Norton stones (India/Arkansas) get better with wear
This has also been my experience, could it be that’s why people are getting infirior results with these stones? Could they be just not using them long enough for them to “wear in”?
A lot of sharpening is done together, chef's for example use a steel frequently and then periodically (and not very often) actually rehone the bevel on a number of knives.
This is also the case with me, if I’m sharpening lots of knives (mainly other peoples kitchen knives that are SUPER dull) I’ll always use the waterstones. The setup time is then outbalanced by the speed of sharpening. My old roommate was a chef (sushi) and they had several stones soaking and ready to go at all times, and a station dedicated to sharpening. They sharpened their knives so often they would usually just leave the stones out with a slurry on them and they would not dry out significantly before the next person came along. Interestingly some of there knives were VERRY soft, mostly the ones for hacking apart large fish carcasses and so on, and these dulled quickly, as they were not only soft, but used on bone and the like.
Have you noticed any difference in edge retention between the two types of stones at a similar finish, especially with the high carbide steels? What typical angles do you hone for most cutlery
Not really. I sharpen with the waterstones on an irregular bases, and I use the knives for a variety of purposes, also alot of the knives (some of the high carbide steels) I sharpen are not mine, and as you said befour, its hard to get unbiased results if you sharpen for free. Any difference in edge retention would be purely speculation on my part, as I have never done any type of edge retention tests. Have you tested for edge retention based on using different stones? I’d be interested to know the results. I have read some of your edge retention testing and other data, and its verry intresting / informitive. have you done any extensive testing on edge retention based on geometry alone? or edge durability based on edge geometry? I couldn’t tell you the angles I use exactly, as its mostly just by feel for the type of work done. For my EDC(s) (benchmade nimravus where legal, benchmade striker where not) I use a convex secondary bevel and finish it off with about a 25 degree micro bevel.
Cliff, here’s a bit about my sharpening history / development, and the reason I use the geometry I currently do. I thought you’d be interested, as it seems you are always gathering information on these types of things: note, all angles are approximant, maybe give or take as much as 3 degrees? When my dad tought me how to sharpen (when I was maybe 14?) he tought me to hold the knife perpendicular to the stone (90 degrees) then cut that in half (45 degrees) then in half again (22.5 degrees) and that this was good for general use, no micro bevel or anything. Well since I sharpened very infrequently (not much to sharpen in the city besides kitchen knives) and because I was using the handheld slipstones instead of a benchstone, I couldn’t keep a consistent angle, so I would end up with a convex sharpening bevel that would sometimes get sharp if I hit the “actual” edge enough. I was finally able to get a shaving sharp edge on this random convex bevel fairly consistently (when I was 20 or so, around the time of my first decent knife), although it took a while.
Anyway the more I sharpened and used knives, and understood sharpening, the more I was able to hold an accurate bevel. I got to be able to hold a fairly precise angle, so that I could not see a curve on the edge, and I would say it was about 20 to 22 generally, but I experimented with smaller bevels too (maybe as little as 12 degrees?). I noticed however that even though I got a shaving sharp edge faster and more consistently, it didn’t seem to hold up as long as my old convex edge, especially on the smaller bevels. I researched a little, and read about microbevels and multiple primary / secondary bevels and so on, I still thought convex sharpening was just a result of poor angle control, not something you’d do intentionally. So I tired playing around with microbevels, and found this improved edge durability (as in avoiding chipping / damage AND edge retention) quite a bit, but not as much as my old convex bevel. And I would also have to reduce the secondary bevel to achieve this (to maybe 17?); keeping my old 22-degree and then doing a micro bevel would be pretty obtuse. This thinner edge / micro bevel (maybe 22 degree micro) would hold up well in general, but sometimes chip badly (maybe 1/16” deep) keep in mind that I was pounding it through twisted, knotty oak as thick as the blade was, chopping stuff, and doing other fairly abusive things to it (this was on an old Kabar USMC, I would regularly have to bend the blade / handle juncture back to straight, it finally broke one day).
I was afraid that with all this sharpening, I would sharpen away my knife (the edge was already receding) so I went back to what I knew, convex sharpening. This time however it was not as random, I would have a set starting angle, maybe 15, then every other stroke or so (I flip the knife with every stroke) I would raise the angle, until about 24. This way I was able to produce a fairly consistent convex bevel (like the one pictured on the Nimravus above) then I would hold it at a consistent 25 degrees or so for a couple strokes to produce what you might call a micro bevel, but its really just an extension of the convex bevel, a way to even it out for final, “actual” edge shaping. I found that this worked great, the edge lasted a lot longer than the other method, and I never had a problem with chipping, the edge would just blunt if anything. I did notice a slight decrease in cutting / slicing efficiency, but not much, it still cut quite well. As most of my knives are intended to be able to be used in a survival / emergency situation, I find that this geometry is more practical and versatile than the thinner flat bevel I used to use. Also the fact that I sharpen less and don’t have to remove chips means that the knife itself will last longer.
I’m interested to know your experiences with edge geometry as it relates to edge retention, durability, cutting efficiency, etc., what are your preferred bevel angles? If you have posted somewhere else with this info, so you don’t have to repeat yourself, a link would be much appreciated. Until I came here (to bladeforums) a short time ago, I never really looked into edge geometry options that were far different from what I am using / accustomed to, I just used what worked for me. And it seemed that no one else cared much about the subject. Now that I have read more, I’m intrigued to find out as much as I can, and see if I can improve the performance of my edges as well as offer my experiences.
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) makes it so I sharpen more often, and thus have sharper knives than I would if I had to get out the waterstones every time I needed to sharpen.
Our alternatives to fine waterstones would be ceramic, then leather, then steel. Also there isTormek compound or some ultra fine abrasives a la ScarySharp system.)There are many less-expensive Hard Arkansas but they don't seem similar. I find that the Norton stones (India/Arkansas) get better with wear, but I don't think that the cheaper Hard Arkansas stones I've seen would ever transform, they just aren't the same material by my eye. I do use a hand-held transluscent Arkansas to re-align the edge before sharpening. This seems quite effective.