Artistic Discussion

I seem to have two minds when looking at a knife. There is the concious and deliberative side (Function, fit & finish, materials, overall appearance etc.). But I also have an unconcious side that doesn't always agree with the deliberative side. I have handled (and owned) knives that were not necessarily "perfect" but nonetheless were a joy to experience. I think that with knives (or any art really) we all have both concious and unconcious demands. When something satifies enough of both sides, it "sings" (as Mr. Reichert so rightly stated).
 
I would bet that knives that "just seem right" subconsciously conform or are close to the golden ratio. Artists throughout time have used this proportion both on purpose and by accident.
 
Proportions only apply within the context of each genre. Compare a typical scandi knife with a Bowie or a migration period northern European sword with a katana. Heck even a katana compared to a saber. It really is all very subjective.

The rule as to what is pleasing to the eye in each genre is subject to change. A good example would be early English made Bowies. Many of them do not follow the same ascetic rules that modern American Bowies do.

Composition relative to purpose/genre is the number one factor. Imagine an American style tactical tanto with a thin nickel guard and a dog bone handle (uhg).

Fit is probably the most objective aspect in the composition of a knife.
Finish is subjective and relative. I like a forged finish but only certain knives can pull that off.

Well I just thought I would give you guys my two cents.
 
When I set out to make a knife, I rarely follow any drawn out template (unless I'm trying to make a run of knives all the same). Even when I do, that template started out as a piece of steel ground to its shape. I tried drawing the designs out on paper, cardboard, etc. However, it never seemed to add up to a great design in a finished blade. So from there, I just place a basic idea of blade, handle, and overall length and design in my mind, and I start grinding steel. I keep grinding until I've ruined the blank for its original purpose or end up with something that looks right, but more importantly (for me), feels right in the hand. Lots of holding in different positions of use, lots of profile examination against a bright background, lots of tweaking angles and curves until they are aesthetically pleasing and uniform.

To me, feel in hand is especially important. There are knives that I've bought over the years which I can just on the couch watching TV, and simply hold in hand. Changing grips; opening/closing; feeling. These invariably are my favorite knives. So when I started making knives, I went for the same feel. Can I hold it in hand, enjoy its texture, proportions, balance, etc just holding it.

Proportions and balance seem to be a part of this equation for certain. For a daily carry knife, my handles shorten a bit, but not to be overpowered by the blade. On a camp knife, the handles lengthen to a full working grip, but the blade has to balance as well.

Aesthetically, I've always enjoyed blades that have some root or resemblance of the Japanese blades. The gentle curves and flow of the blades appeal to me.

Everyone's different, but I try and make knives that appeal to me in hopes that they appeal to others as well.

--nathan
 
Flow and function. While I admire the artistry that goes into the surface embellishment of something like a Warenski piece, it detracts from the knife as "knife" I think the essence of knife can be ultimately distilled into something that can be gesturally drawn with 6 lines, curving or straight. I find myself drawn more and more toward the primal aesthetic (not NeoTribal, but primal) if there is ornamentation it is in the material itself, patternwelding, tempering colors, hamon, wrought/steel composite for the blade, mokume, grainy wrought, etc for the fittings, and handle materials that have a beauty in themselves would fit with this definition (stag crown, exotic hardwoods, burl etc) where the form is simple and functional and the materials themselves merely add to it.

-Page
 
Some good information on here. You guys know your stuff. But reading about all this, one question sticks in my mind.
"Are these things that can be learned and applied or is it something you are born with?"

I mean mainly about the ratio and natural curves. The function of of knife I know you can tweak with trial and error. Same with quality, fit, etc... Can you do the same with the general aesthetic quality of a knife? Or are people like Raymond Richard just born with something us mere mortals can only dream about?

Pad
 
I think it's something you feel instinctively. A great student can learn many things, especially about design, function, fit/finish, technique, but that student still has to develop his or her own style which will show through in their finished work.

Now style is something that often takes elements seen from others work, as there is rarely anything truly novel in the world of knives, and combines them to form a knife that fits what the maker feels it should look like. I don't think it involves copying things directly from others, but choosing for yourself how you feel your knife should look. That's why when I'm making a knife, I don't want to look at pictures or other knives that I have when I'm profiling the blade. I want it to flow from what feels right to me. I want to see it develop from the raw steel; often it will not look like what I first invisioned. Will the finished product resemble aspects of others work? I'm quite sure it will. What can be done likely has been done as far as design.

There are makers in the world of custom knives who just have that knack of forming something visceral. Something that reaches inside of you and grabs your intestines and twists a bit. Something that you look at and go, "...wow...." For every person, that maker is different. But I think we can all agree that the Raymond Richards and the Bruce Bumps and the many, many other makers out there who continually wow us have a special, uncanny ability to, time and again, make that "...wow...."

So to an extent, you're born with it. And to an extent, you can develop your own style by looking at many, many knives and finding what is pleasing to you. Take those elements, form a mental picture, and make a knife. Don't use a reference or a picture to go off of, just wing it and let what happens happen.

I think the flow and curves and organic nature of a knife is just one style. Given, it is generally pleasing, but other makers such as Yuna Knives have flourished for the harder, more angular approaches (though elements of flow and curves and proportions can still be seen at work). I don't think it has to be organic, but it should please the maker.

Now after all of that rambling...what was the question? :D

--nathan
 
Padrig and Friend,

I do believe style, taste and aesthetics are "learn-able," at least they can be educated to some degree. Sure, there are those who have innate abilities or understanding or a "sense" of aesthetic proportion and balance, but there must be more to it than just an innate (unconscious) ability. Even those who seem to have a sense of grace have to educate themselves about it to some degree.

So the question seems to be how to go about educating ourselves in this regards. The way many of us seem to go about it is by (more or less) blind luck. We put our best efforts forward and stand back when the job is done and ask, is it good? Sometimes we're too close to our own creative processes to make a reasonable assessment. Sometimes those we check in with and ask, "hey, what do you think, how does she look," are too close to us too and may not be as frank as we would wish. Of course, the market is (more or less) objective. If the stuff we make sells we might be on a good track, so we pursue it. If it doesn't, back to the drawing board.

Although this sink or swim approach is common, it doesn't mean it's the best (or only) one. Another many of us take up is the what looks good to us and how did they do that? This approach is common in art studies. You know, where the art students all paint copies of the masters, for instance. Indeed, a whole lot can be learned in this manner. (So Ray, Tai, Bruce, Ed and a host of you masters...look out we're studying YOU!)

Along with these studies of the masters, the art classes take their students on journeys of discovery, not only of technique, but composition, values and principles too. They study things like color theory, perspective, texture, tone, value, symbology, historic trends, and a host of other stuff (this is where I reveal I'm in way over my head).

Anyway, as knife makers, we certainly strive to master technique, without which we're fairly crippled. This can keep us pretty busy too. We need to not only learn how to transform and combine blade, handle and fitting materials, we often need to learn how to create the very mean to apply these techniques. So we delve into setting up our shops and studios too. We then need to figure out how to package our creations and market them. So sheaths and shows and sites and the like will, at some point, consume our time. Stuff like photography and makers marks and a host of other stuff are likely to come our way as abilities we'll need to fulfill too.

Anyway, technique aside, every now and then, some savvy person might ask, "say, what makes a knife beautiful anyway?" And on we go to our study of aesthetics. The line and curve, positive and negative spaces, texture and trim, balance and proportion, etc. I believe, inherent in the asking, we are putting out feet more firmly on the path of understanding and application. Making ourselves familiar with some of the principles of graphic (2 dimensional) and 3 dimentional design would not be out of order. Studying the human hand and its use of tools and the blade naturally is of interest. Studying forms and patterns in nature can be a real guide on this journey to taste and style. Studying trends and historic patterns, the masters (past and present) and associating with guilds and clubs (online ones too:D) are a great way to broaden our exposure, thus our understanding.

BTW, did you see this thread on knife making and the golden mean?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=476434

All the best, Phil
 
when people start, they try to make whatever is currently in style (remember all of the 3/8 inch thick Rambo style knives 20 years ago?) then they eventually start to look for their own voice. when they use knives hard on a daily basis, in addition to making them, they start to figure out what works, and what is hollow aesthetic. a truly functional knife reaches out to you at a visceral level, and generally has simple but efficient lines. It says "I am knife" Mall ninja stuff says "I am an awkward fashion statement"
most really functional knives have historical design precedent

-Page
 
I think some have a better natural ability to create appealing knives. Some have a better eye for textures and color schemes, but it can be learned to a point and even those who do have natural talent can gain from education either formal or self. I mean like this place is a treasure trove of tit bits of what and why it works together. Just the photos alone are an education. Then, I was at a blacksmith hammer in this spring and one of the speakers was a guy who went into eye appeal a bit and some of the psychology behind it. How the mind focuses and is attracted to things. How just the direction of lines can make things appear taller or shorter. etc. Things that distract and confuse. Pointed out a lot of interesting things. Lot of that will stay in my mind as I create a knife. Simple things like 1 pin OK 2 pins OK, but, the mind will seek a center between the 2. 3 pins will cause focus on the middle pin and 4 pins would confuse and cause the eye to search for a center. 5 would lose you unless the center one was different like larger to refocus the mind. The way the grain runs and the width of it can visually stretch or widen an handle, The same with damascus patterns.
 
Art and design are really two of the hardest things to teach. However, I think they are learnable to some degree...

So much of it has to do with individuality and expressing one's self. So, you can study art and design,... but in the end, you need to throw the book out and go by your gut.

Yes, you need to make what you like... self evaluation and critique are key to the creative process. Once an artist starts believing his reviews, good or bad, and starts catering to the mainstream elitists and critics, he loses a part of himself... Taking risks and sticking your neck out seem to be two of the main requirements.

This is a life long journey of self discovery and personal expression... This type of soul searching isn't always a pleasant thing,... and probably not for the timid, cowardly, insecure or faint hearted...
 
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Some critics will say that art and knives don’t mix!,… but I think that the “knife/sword” is a powerful human symbol, and can be a great way to express yourself.

Express yourself as a knife! :)
 
"Express yourself as a knife! "

Now that's what I'm talkin about!
I hope to get there one of these days. Although, the very act is self expression I don't think I am anywhere near expressing myself or others fully as a blade. Give me some time.

Allen
 
All art is a form of communication. So, if knifemaking is an art, then each piece we create makes a statement about who we are, regardless of our intent or whether or not we are aware of it! However, the more "aware" we become, that we are communicating with others and with ourselves, defining our culture the way we see it, expressing our views etc., etc., etc.,... the better we become at what we do! :)

Art is a great ongoing form of self dialog and feedback...
 
Watch out guys, next thing we know Tai's going to be asking us what's the sound of one hand clapping. Leave it to him to Zen us into self reflection as we pound and peddle steel.

I agree, what's worth doing, what fulfills us in doing it, can fill a lifetime. Good questions are like that. We don't completely answer them, but we do deepen them, the question(s), as we invest ourselves in them as we go along...
 
Tai Goo said:
All art is a form of communication. So, if knifemaking is an art, then each piece we create makes a statement about who we are, regardless of our intent or whether or not we are aware of it! However, the more "aware" we become, that we are communicating with others and with ourselves, defining our culture the way we see it, expressing our views etc., etc., etc.,... the better we become at what we do! :)

Art is a great ongoing form of self dialog and feedback...
Click to expand...


Bingo!
 
One of my graphic designer friends says that "there can only be one hero" on a well-designed magazine spread. I think that applies in knifemaking as well. There should be something about the piece that is striking and distinctive, but the different parts shouldn't be fighting for attention.

For example, a strongly patterned damascus blade might look best with a simple handle. A stunning piece of handle material could likewise be a focal point.

I like to try to accent one feature of a piece and have the others play a supporting role.

Unless it's done really well, stuffing glitz into every nook and cranny gets visually overwhelming. Sometimes the more you adorn something, the less attention gets paid to each detail.

Josh
 
I try to avoid un-modulated lines... and search for the golden "torus". :D

You just need to find out what your "bag" is man... :)
 
golden taurus:

CAB80FOC071A0807.jpg
 
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