Ashokan is set!

Kevin R. Cashen said:
(that works well since with my schedule taking me to the ARMA event in Houston....
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You've piqued my curiosity, Kevin. Why are you attending an ARMA event? Gonna get some tips on swordsmanship with the rapier or somethin? I ask because my former sword instructor now lives in Houston & I could put you in touch with him if you'd like.
 
Mace said:
Sam, I think your right! This would be better suited for next year.
As one of the guys who started the unofficial challenges I have some issues with this.
I don't think this should be judged by anyone other than the participants themselves.....
Mace
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My sincerest apologies for overstepping my bounds, I was just responding to a request made to me. If this is not to be anything involving the NEBG or the organizers that is cool, it would simply be one less distraction from the organization of the seminar itself. Turning the reigns back over to the people, they will be the best arbiters of when it should happen as well.
 
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the possum said:
You've piqued my curiosity, Kevin. Why are you attending an ARMA event? Gonna get some tips on swordsmanship with the rapier or somethin? I ask because my former sword instructor now lives in Houston & I could put you in touch with him if you'd like.
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I have worked in cooperation with the ARMA group for some time as far as writing articles for them and getting feedback on sword function and use. I was one of the featured speakers at the Houston gathering in 2007, and will be delivering another talk this year. I only dabble in swordsmanship enough to get ideas for better sword design, as my interest rest more in the manufacturing end of things and at the ARMA events do not participate in the exercises more than necessary to meet those ends. But I do feel that the one facet of sword making that is missing in modern times is the constant feedback from actual sword users that smiths in the past enjoyed, and it is a rather critical one. After studying many modern sword using groups, I feel ARMA can come the closest to that original exchange of information.
 
Kevin, Please....no apology is needed. You guys do what you want...it's your gig, I'm just happy to go and learn.
I was stating my opinion on the matter. It seems to me that with judges like yourself and Tim this could be very intimidating for anyone, but even more so for a new guy. Thats why I suggested the partisipants be the ones who judge. Nothing better than winning accolades from your peers.;)
Mace
 
Can't wait. This will be my first time....
 
I like the idea of getting an evaluation from industry proffessionals. I jump at the chance to get a piece of my work evaluated by top guys in the field, let alone another swordmaker who is top in that field! If anyone is intimidated, let's make it clear that Kevin and Tim are not the kind of guys who will insult and demean anyone.

Am I under the wrong impression that the contest would not only be just a pass/fail thing, but some tips and trick on what they could do better? I would never want a useless award that only says I am better or worse, but information on what I am doing right or doing wrong. Making swords is not something common to everyone, quite a minority in the regular blademaking community. Most everyone participating will be making a sword for the first time, so why would anyone like to be evaluated by others who don't know much more than them when the chance is there to be evaluated by 2 professionals? Plus I would like an excuse to bug them about more information regarding swords :D

In the spirit of informality, let's not take it so serious and have some fun AND let's all learn something :D ! Please let's make and keep this well organized so everyone can come away with something, maybe a fantastic prize (like Del's damascus) or a fantastic prize of information.

Sorry Kevin to want to give you and Tim more to think about, I know you guys are busy!
 
I completely understand the need for things that are just for the fun of it and the informal format would probably work best with the NEBG zero politics philosophy. I only incorporated it into my plans because I thought from reading the initial sword challenge thread, and other subsequent communications, that it was something that all concerned wanted. After all, we in the NEBG try our best to listen and accommodate for what the participants want, hence the trouble free change of plans when I learned it was not what all concerned wanted. Input on our work can be had at any time by asking, no need for a competition for that.

Of the awards that I have, the ones where my peers were the judges are indeed the most prized by me.
 
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It's just like you to back down from a challenge, Kevin.;)

My opinion is worth nothing, but I like giving it - so here goes...

If you want to make a sword, and show up in a competitive mind with the same camaraderie that comes with all things Ashokan, you should. If you want to show up and learn from some of the greats in the field, you should. If you want to make a kiridashi for the goofball challenge, you should. If you want to tape a 'kick me' sign to Kevin's back just before his lecture, you'll likely be too late because I will have done it already.:D

Not only can I not wait for Roman Landes' lecture, and all of the incredible food, but I want to see what Erik Boese has been working on - which happens to be a sword for the previously arranged sword competition. Keep to the plan - if Kevin's not going to be the judge, maybe it should be done via a simple ballot system - or something else I can fix!:D:D Chads, anyone?
 
I ain't been workin' on nuttin'! :D

I, of course, will be bringing a sword. I could care less about competition but really would like some serious feedback from the talent on site. I may even pop out a kiridashi (leaning towards Silly Putty right now). As for everyone that's going to be there, I'm really looking forward to seeing ya'll!!!!!
 
By the way, Ti isn't as hard to mill as I thought....grinding though seems to be a PITA!!!
 
EriK, have you got your schedule yet for that weekend? Will you be driving up from VA?

I feel that there are arguments for both judging systems. This is why they use a combination of both in things like American Idol and So You Think You Can Dance.
Expert judges aren't usually swayed by PR or personalities, they look at technical merit. Peers are impressed by things that have wow factor, they like the presentation . A combination of both often makes the best selection. The two expert judges could determine which sword is their favorite, and all the people attending the conference can drop a ballot in a box with their vote for best sword. That way you will have a Judges Choice, and a peoples Choice. Split the booty between the two (unless the same sword wins both).

Stacy
 
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Stacy,

Unfortunately it looks like I will definitely be in Boston the week prior to Ashokan so will shoot over from there. Not thrilled about it and was looking forward to riding up with you but work is work. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.
 
bladsmth said:
EriK, have you got your schedule yet for that weekend? Will you be driving up from VA?

I feel that there are arguments for both judging systems. This is why they use a combination of both in things like American Idol and So You Think You Can Dance.
Expert judges aren't usually swayed by PR or personalities, they look at technical merit. Peers are impressed by things that have wow factor, they like the presentation . A combination of both often makes the best selection. The two expert judges could determine which sword is their favorite, and all the people attending the conference can drop a ballot in a box with their vote for best sword. That way you will have a Judges Choice, and a peoples Choice. Split the booty between the two (unless the same sword wins both).

Stacy
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For much the same reasons I use American Idol to teach my children the differences between actual democracy and representative republics. I must confess to being a fan of republics with well written constitutions, and not very keen on democracies which I consider little more than mob rule (and before anybody gets his panties in bind please remember that the U.S. is actually the former more than the latter). Idol seems to make sense as long as it is in the hands of appointed judges who are knowledgeable in music. The judging is based upon actual talent and technical merits. Then in the final stages when the contest is turned over to the general population you get things like Sanjaya beating out real talent in order to see what his hair style will be next week. I stopped watching the show on a regular basis around 3 seasons ago when it lost much credibility in my eyes because of this problem. There was an extremely talented black girl who was so far above the rest in talent that I and the judges were blown away every time she sang. She was quiet, humble and subdued in everything except that phenomenal voice, and when the show got turned over to public voting she was dropped in favor of the showboating, more physically attractive lesser talents. Simon Cowell could not hide his shock and horror when she was voted off.

In knifemaking the real experts that should be judging blades for awards are our peers. Other knifemakers are capable of seeing through the BS and spotting flaws or actual accomplishments in a blade. I personally think it is a huge black spot of shame on our business to have purveyors judging major knife awards- can you say “conflict of interest”. Think of how it would look if every winner of American Idol happened to have a recording contract with Randy or Simon before they even auditioned for the show. Just look at the outrage a couple of years back when there were rumors that one was doinking Paula. Not only is all objectivity blown in such judgings, but often the “experts” doing the judging are totally out of their element in anything outside of what profit they could turn on the blade. There are certain categories where the makers who do that sort of work simply cannot take the award seriously due to the “Sanjaya” type of wins that often crop up. I have been doing this knife show thing for almost 20 years now and I could fill this thread with horror stories about the political nonsense in knife judgings that I have witnessed. And one last thing- take a look at the makers names you see most often in print leading up to winning a number of knife awards. Not the other way around, mind you, but how the P.R. seems to generate awards instead of the opposite; it can pay to advertise folks.

The award I treasure the most is a “Best of Show” award I got at a show where the other makers at the show were the judges. Each table holder was given the first day to walk around the show and then place their vote for the best piece in the ballot box. Some guys who’s work I really admire and are some of the best were in that room and when my piece was named the winner I was floored! There was nobody looking to increase a profit margin or value on my other work in their sales stock or collection, or jockeying for some political advantage. No, just a room full of people who worked just as hard as I did to do the same things and had nothing to gain by saying this is an exceptional blade.

Guys, keep the Ashokan challenge thing fun, but if you can’t always manage to do that, at least keep it pure! Keep the politics and pompousness out of it and you will have a rare and special thing.
 
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Kevin R. Cashen said:
Guys, keep the Ashokan challenge thing fun, but if you can’t always manage to do that, at least keep it pure! Keep the politics and pompousness out of it and you will have a rare and special thing.
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Well said, Kevin.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I have worked in cooperation with the ARMA group for some time as far as writing articles for them and getting feedback on sword function and use. I was one of the featured speakers at the Houston gathering in 2007, and will be delivering another talk this year. I only dabble in swordsmanship enough to get ideas for better sword design, as my interest rest more in the manufacturing end of things and at the ARMA events do not participate in the exercises more than necessary to meet those ends. But I do feel that the one facet of sword making that is missing in modern times is the constant feedback from actual sword users that smiths in the past enjoyed, and it is a rather critical one. After studying many modern sword using groups, I feel ARMA can come the closest to that original exchange of information.
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Sounds cool, man. That's actually one of the main reasons I started studying swordsmanship myself- so I'd better understand how a real sword is supposed to function. 'Course I still have a long ways to go.... :)
 
The challenges are a secondary thing..........Ashokan itself to me is the rare and special thing. I love going to Ashokan.:D
Mace
 
Thanks Kevin and I see we wrangled in Kenny Rowe this year?
Very cool !!! :)
G2
 
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