"At the buyers discretion"

[Bigfattyt]

If I want the knife enough, I will add the cost of insurance. But, I've do so, and had a few instances where the seller accepted the money, and did not insure the package anyway.

I've also sold a knife to AUS, and the buyer asked me not to insure it.

It was a $230 knife.. I insured it, because I was not willing to risk the loss.

I don't sell a lot, but if it is money I'm n6or willing to just give away, I always insure.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

I've also sold a knife to AUS, and the buyer asked me not to insure it.

Ir was a $230 knife.. I insured it, because I was not willing to risk the loss.

That is another problem that comes up with international buyers that don't want to declare the true value. If you don't declare the full value then you really can't insure it for the true value.
I do however suggest you get that all straightened out before shipping. I have heard of buyers that refused to accept the item, when they had to pay import tax(for lack of knowing the correct term).

 

[katanas]

Another concern I had not even thought of which should cause out of country buyers to not be as upset when sellers will not sell overseas.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Another concern I had not even thought of which should cause out of country buyers to not be as upset when sellers will not sell overseas.

I do need to say that the good foreign buyers(and there are plenty of them) do transactions in a straight manner, and do not ask you to lie on any forms. But just as some don't like paying PP fees, some aren't going to want to pay import taxes, and this affects insuring.

 

[tyyreaun]

Spoiler warning! This is how all of it would play out:

1. Seller posts knife with "buyer pays for insurance" disclaimer
2. Buyer buys the knife, and either ignores or misses the disclaimer
3. Knife disappears to wherever missing packages, cheap pens, and left socks go to
4. Buyer asks for refund
5. Seller says "ha ha I said you need to buy insurance! no refund for you!"
6. Buyer files PayPal claim and receives a refund in approximately 3.7 seconds
7. Seller goes nuts, leaves negative feedback and starts a GBU thread that buyer "reneged on the terms of the listing"
8. The BladeForums community roundly mocks the Seller for being a dumbass
9. A BladeForums admin reverses the negative feedback and tells the Seller to go be a dumbass somewhere else

Moral of the story: don't be a dumbass.

Incidentally, some knifemakers on here use the same disclaimers.

 

[n850gt]

Insurance is not something I skimp on when selling. Never had to use it, and I’ve heard horror stories about trying to collect from USPS but I include it anyway and figure I’ll cross the claims bridge when (if) the time comes.

I just figure it into the cost of the knife. And yes, it is intended to protect me as a seller, so I can recoup the loss after making the buyer whole.

 

[Quiet]

I also like to keep the sales posts simple, it does make it way less complex for the buyer.
Besides the seller buying insurance, signature confirmation is also a good option, especially when delivery is to an apartment, or an unknown buyer.

I mean, most people you do business with are unknown buyers. Insurance is sufficient, and signature required is overkill in my book. I have a locking mailbox that only I and the mailman have a key to. Let me tell you, if we do not agree on signature required beforehand, and my knife shows up requiring a signature? Few things irritate me more. I work for a living, and nothing pisses me off like coming home anticipating getting to open a new knife, only to find that slip stuck to the door because the seller didn't inform me beforehand that that's how he ships and now I have to go down to the post office to get my damn knife the next day. Because yep, I wasn't home today and I won't be home tomorrow.

 

[Quiet]

That is another problem that comes up with international buyers that don't want to declare the true value. If you don't declare the full value then you really can't insure it for the true value.
I do however suggest you get that all straightened out before shipping. I have heard of buyers that refused to accept the item, when they had to pay import tax(for lack of knowing the correct term).

Yep, another reason why I don't do international business. It's not on me to know another country's laws or mail foibles.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Isn’t it just simpler to say “the deals not done until BOTH parties are satisfied “

Makes it so much easier then all the legal “Mumbo jumbo” that show up in some of the for sale ads on here.

My gosh some of the ads read like a lawyers commercial on tv.

Sorta takes all the fun out of knife collecting. I’ll just stick with the easy straight forward sales.

Old fashioned I guess

Mark T.

You can say whatever you want. Just not enforceable unless it complies with the law, unless you're a politician or bureaucrat.

 

[stonesell]

I mean, most people you do business with are unknown buyers. Insurance is sufficient, and signature required is overkill in my book. I have a locking mailbox that only I and the mailman have a key to. Let me tell you, if we do not agree on signature required beforehand, and my knife shows up requiring a signature? Few things irritate me more. I work for a living, and nothing pisses me off like coming home anticipating getting to open a new knife, only to find that slip stuck to the door because the seller didn't inform me beforehand that that's how he ships and now I have to go down to the post office to get my damn knife the next day. Because yep, I wasn't home today and I won't be home tomorrow.

I agree that it can be unwanted extra work to retrieve and sign for a package. It is definitely not a shipping tool that is designed for buyer convenience. I find that many high value packages require my signature, but for $100 or less usually not.
I still think it is something that is solely at the sellers discretion. Informing the buyer first, may defeat some of the security measures that this method offers, and could lead to disagreement that results in the cancellation of the sale. Risking an irritated buyer having to go to the post office, is preferable to having the package disappear. Most deliveries can also be rescheduled, thereby eliminating that extra trip.

 

[Drew Riley]

It's pretty simple. The SELLER is buying the the shipping label, the SELLER is clicking the box for whether or not to add insurance, and the cost of the shipping label, insurance included or not, is coming out of the SELLER's bank acount. Why any seller thinks that insurance is the BUYER's responsibility, absolutely boggles my mind. The guy with the shipping receipt files the claim and receives any payout, NOT the person you're shipping to.

To simplify matters even more: If I pay with paypal Goods and Services, and I don't receive a package, or it's not what I paid for, I'm filing a claim, and chances are better than good that I'll receive a refund.

If, as a seller, you're not going to pay for insurance, it's YOU that it taking the gamble, not the buyer. If you can't swing an extra few bucks to insure your package, then include the price of insurance into the asking price, don't sell it, or instead of shipping the item, deliver it by hand. It really is that simple.

 

[Quiet]

I agree that it can be unwanted extra work to retrieve and sign for a package. It is definitely not a shipping tool that is designed for buyer convenience. I find that many high value packages require my signature, but for $100 or less usually not.
I still think it is something that is solely at the sellers discretion. Informing the buyer first, may defeat some of the security measures that this method offers, and could lead to disagreement that results in the cancellation of the sale. Risking an irritated buyer having to go to the post office, is preferable to having the package disappear. Most deliveries can also be rescheduled, thereby eliminating that extra trip.

I'm sorry, what? Informing the buyer defeats some of the security measures? Please elaborate. As a security professional, I can't wait to hear this.

Secondly, I see that you understand my position (as a buyer) completely, but have decided that putting money in your pocket is worth more than concern for a buyer's potential situation. "Well, if I tell the buyer that I'm sending it signature required, he might decline and cancel the sale. Can't have that, so I'll just do it anyway."

Sounds to me like the "Security measures" you are speaking of is the "security" of your sale. Needless to say, you are 100% on my "Never Do Business With" list.

 

[stonesell]

I'm sorry, what? Informing the buyer defeats some of the security measures? Please elaborate. As a security professional, I can't wait to hear this.

Secondly, I see that you understand my position (as a buyer) completely, but have decided that putting money in your pocket is worth more than concern for a buyer's potential situation. "Well, if I tell the buyer that I'm sending it signature required, he might decline and cancel the sale. Can't have that, so I'll just do it anyway."

Sounds to me like the "Security measures" you are speaking of is the "security" of your sale. Needless to say, you are 100% on my "Never Do Business With" list.

If a buyer is a scam artist knowing that a signature is required, they could be prepared to have another sign for it, and then file a claim for package not received. It’s hard to anticipate every con.
While I don’t ask buyers if they will accept a package that needs to be signed for, I would not go ahead and send it that way anyway, if they informed me that they didn’t have a way to receive it.
Since the seller is totally responsible to get the package to the correct buyer, signature confirmation still seems like a good way to enhance any shipping insurance, with is very difficult to collect on anyway.
If people know each other, then there is rarely a problem. Buyers and sellers who don’t know each other, but communicate well about all of the shipping details, will work these issues out ahead of time.
While I won’t try and force a buyer to sign for a package against their wishes, I don’t believe it to be irresponsible, if I don’t ask each and every recipient about their ability to sign, upon successfull delivery of the package. I’ve never had anyone ask me, they just send it according to their own protocol standards.
For your particular preferences of avoiding signature confirmation, then it is prudent and logical for you to inform every seller who doesn’t know you.

 

[Chariotz4]

Quiet In the few sales that I've completed on the exchange as the seller, I've always shipped with signature confirmation upon delivery (and insurance and tracking). It's something that I didn't hide or spring on the buyer though; I list it as being something included in the price of the knife upon purchase in my sales threads. If someone who was interested in buying a knife that I was selling request that it not be purchased with shipping, I likely would cater to the request (the caveat here being that the knives I have sold and that are in my collection to sell are not extremely valuable - they're just standard models of production folders from companies like Benchmade or Spyderco). You're selling to somone and in my opinion you should want them to be satisfied with the experience of dealing with you as well as what they are getting.

Having said that, in my (relatively few) purchases off the Canadian exchange (I reside in Canada), I have twice had packages go "missing" via Canada Post. In both cases, it ended up being (what I like to think was an) honest mistake; the package intending to be delivered to my residence with the home address "X885" was instead delivered to "X855" just down the street. I'll also add that rather than mail being delivered personally to each home in my neighbourhood, there is a community mailbox with locked boxes for each house and a few oversixed boxes which the courier has the keys to which they can leave in your personal box if the item being delivered won't fit in it. Given this system, it's likely that in their haste to deliver the mail, they simply put my knives in the wrong box - a much easier mistake to make than physically walking all the way up to the wrong house (or so I'd like to think).

In both cases, the sender hadn't opted for signature confirmation upon delivery so even though the packages were being shown as "delivered" they were nowhere to be found for myself. The first time this occurred, there was a little more wondering as to where the package was by both myself and the seller. The second time around, given my prior experience, I rightly figured that it was just a repeat of the case of the first "missing" package. Luckily, I have a friendly and conscientious neighbour (plenty actually) and got both knives a few days after they were "delivered".

The reason for the short story is this: in both of those cases, particularly the second time around, I didn't immediately jump to the conclusion of being scammed or that the knife was stolen in transit. However, until my neighbour was able to link up with me and deliver the packages, I couldn't rule out either of those scenarios as being the reality (although I had serious doubts about the scamming scenario given my previous dialogue with both sellers). One of the major benefits in my opinion of signature confirmation is that until the courier can physically get someone to sign for and take possession of the item(s) in question, it remains in the possession of the Postal Service which in turn also means that if it's not delivered to my address, I should be able to expect the package to be at the local post office (as per the delivery slip) where in order to retreive it, I need to be able to prove my place of residence/identity. This provides myself at least with the peace of mind that while I may not be able to have my knife in hand right away, I can be confident on where it is in the meantime. Since knives generally aren't a necessity for my day to day life, I'm willing to accept this trade off. It also doesn't hurt that I live less than a 10 minute drive from the post office.

I'm not disagreeing with you that this can be annoying at times for the buyer (perhaps an understatment?), especially as you have already mentioned that not everyone works regular shifts and/or hours - myself included. However, I feel that for certain buyers and sellers, the extra piece of mind it provides can be worth the potential hassle it may provide.

I haven't amassed a lot of sales here, but like I've said, the few knives I have sold here I mailed with signature confirmation (as was plainly stated in the for sale thread) and I have yet to have someone ask me about not purchasing that option when mailing. Not trying to say everyone has to or should use it though. Just my $0.02 from my (limited) personal experience.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Just to clarify-only up to $500 insurance(believe it used to be $200) does the seller have any say in signature or not. It is the USPS that asks for it after that . The seller might not even know it was happening, and as far as I know there is no way to waive it.

 

[Lance Leon]

Another concern I had not even thought of which should cause out of country buyers to not be as upset when sellers will not sell overseas.

I'm not in the US, and I deal with import taxes like this: if the seller want to insure it, then we declare it as full value and I take the hit on the tax. But if it's not insured, I see no reason to declare the contents and value, which don't benefit either of us and only increase the risk of theft. Also there's always forwarding addresses and other forms of postage which can allow you to ship with less hassle and in some cases, will even let you avoid paying tax (100% legal, at least for me).

I don't think it's fair to completely shut out international buyers without giving them the chance to work things out first. Again, forwarding addresses or other similar methods mean you (the seller) you only handle issues within the US if the buyer agrees to absolve you of all responsibility once it's reached their forwarding address, which insure the package on it's second trip. That's what I usually do, especially when it comes to higher value transactions.

 

[Lance Leon]

Yep, another reason why I don't do international business. It's not on me to know another country's laws or mail foibles.

Correct, it isn't your duty to know the law governing the other party. That said, international transactions can go just as smoothly as US-only deals; people just need clear communication as to where responsibilities lie and what arrangements are appropriate. You're free to not deal me or anyone else outside of the US, but I don't think it's fair or reasonable to rule out folks based on location when thorough communication is all that's needed.

 

[Quiet]

Correct, it isn't your duty to know the law governing the other party. That said, international transactions can go just as smoothly as US-only deals; people just need clear communication as to where responsibilities lie and what arrangements are appropriate. You're free to not deal me or anyone else outside of the US, but I don't think it's fair or reasonable to rule out folks based on location when thorough communication is all that's needed.

While politely, I understand your position, I am not concerned with fairness. I believe in simple, successful transactions between two satisfied folks, the buyer and the seller. Me? I sell knives rarely, and when I do, I want it to be as painless and as low-effort as possible. I have a big stack of the small Priority boxes at my house and plenty of bubble-wrap and packing tape. I use Paypal/Shipnow to purchase the postage, package the knife and wrap the hell out of it. Takes me like five minutes, then I print out the postage and tape it on the box. Then the box goes in the Blue Box near my office. Low effort, low stress. I'm not standing in line at the post office to fill out customs forms, or try to figure out what I need to put on this or that declaration (I refuse to lie and state it's a "gift"). I like simple. My feedback rating on eBay is 100%, same as it is here. Low effort, low stress, successful transactions. Easy peasy.

Also, here's another aspect. When I want to sell a knife, it's usually to fund one of my other hobbies. Therefore, I don't want money sitting in my Paypal account for weeks or even a month or longer waiting for a knife to show up in the buyer's home country, waiting to see if it gets released, waiting to see if the buyer will pay whatever Customs duties are required, etc. After all, the reputable and upstanding thing is keeping that money in my Paypal account until the buyer has received and "blessed" the knife, which is how I operate. If I need to issue a refund, I want to do it right away. That's why I like keeping things local. The knife gets to the buyer quick (two or three days), he's happy, I'm happy, and we both continue to have a fantastic day and I move forward in spending the money from the sale. You will never see a thread about me in this section talking about a negative response.

One last item of note. Every single significant-value loss in a transaction I've ever had, was something disappearing when being sent overseas, and Paypal siding with the buyer leaving me with no money, and no item. So again, while I hear you, there are very valid reasons why I (and many Bladeforums members) don't deal with overseas customers.

 

[Quiet]

If a buyer is a scam artist knowing that a signature is required, they could be prepared to have another sign for it, and then file a claim for package not received. It’s hard to anticipate every con.
While I don’t ask buyers if they will accept a package that needs to be signed for, I would not go ahead and send it that way anyway, if they informed me that they didn’t have a way to receive it.
Since the seller is totally responsible to get the package to the correct buyer, signature confirmation still seems like a good way to enhance any shipping insurance, with is very difficult to collect on anyway.
If people know each other, then there is rarely a problem. Buyers and sellers who don’t know each other, but communicate well about all of the shipping details, will work these issues out ahead of time.
While I won’t try and force a buyer to sign for a package against their wishes, I don’t believe it to be irresponsible, if I don’t ask each and every recipient about their ability to sign, upon successfull delivery of the package. I’ve never had anyone ask me, they just send it according to their own protocol standards.
For your particular preferences of avoiding signature confirmation, then it is prudent and logical for you to inform every seller who doesn’t know you.

So, you go in assuming every transaction is a possible con? I mean, any seller could just as easily be a scam artist, sending me an empty box, which will still show up as delivered. Also, what I'm taking from this response is again, that you will send something signature required unless someone specifically states that they prefer you not to. Again, that doesn't wow me. As for what is prudent, I believe just the opposite. It is not my responsibility to have to inform a seller not to do something that is going to irritate or offend me, which is out of the norm of standard shipping. I have received hundreds of knives in the course of my pursuit of this hobby, and have had signature confirmation exactly twice (both times unasked for). In both cases, I sent the sellers an extremely terse email.

Sure, good communication will solve this issue, which is why it is on you as the seller to disclose the full discourse of the shipping you will use. It's not on me to verify that you will or won't do something, because you should have a full explanation issued already. Frankly, if I have to ask you to clarify something, you have done a poor job at outlining your procedure. Here's an example of the right way to go about it:

"Hello,

Thank you for purchasing my knife! Upon payment, I will ship your knife within 24 hours. I ship using a USPS Priority Small flat-rate box, and will insure the package for this amount. Are there any extra additional measures you'd like me to take? If you'd like me use a different shipping service, I'd be glad to discuss with you, although you'll need to make up the difference."

If you send me the above message, and the knife shows up "Signature Required" when I had not asked for that, and you didn't specify up front, that was your failure as a seller, not mine as the buyer. After all, literally the whole point of buying things online is that they show up at my home, instead of me having to go somewhere to retrieve/buy the item. Having to go somewhere to pick up a package is the exact opposite of what the experience is supposed to be.

 

[Quiet]

-snipped-


Edited for clarity.

Your first sentence effectively removes you from the point I have contention with. "I list it as being something included in the price of the knife". BOOM. Got it. Good deal. If I as the buyer don't want that, I'm free to discuss with you, and we can come to an arrangement that's satisfactory for both parties. Awesome.

As for my dislike of the inconvenience of SC, I'm sure it has its uses for many people. "the extra piece of mind it provides can be worth the potential hassle it may provide." Simply put (and without rehashing things I've already said here) for me, it simply doesn't. As they are for you, knives for me are a hobby, a discretionary enjoyment in life. When I am forced to leave the office early, or take up a lunch hour going to the PO, I am Not a Happy Camper. If my knife doesn't show up, I give it about two or three days (I've also had neighbors receive packages meant for me) to materialize before contacting the seller to get the ball rolling on the next step in the situation. I would say that's what insurance is for, but I personally believe due to past personal experiences that USPS insurance to be worthless.[/USER]