At What Point is a Knife OVERPRICED?

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Hyperborean said:
These were my thoughts as well. How can a knife cost the same as a pistol with all its precision machined steel parts etc...and beside when you buy a pistol you practicaly can't get a flawed or defective, it will perform as expected... while when buying knives this is not the case, it seems more like a lottery...from my own experiences (and from others) it seems there a a lot of such knives (which doesn't perform as expected or are defective) put on the market which are not cheap by any standards...one such experience (not so long ago) opened my eyes regarding spending that much money on a knife or anything else (for that matter) which is disproportionaly priced by common sense...
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That pistol is made in thousands, mass produced by machine. The knives in that price category are done by hand or at least requiring large amounts of hand work by very skilled craftsmen. The machine operators are being paid $25-$50 an hour, why would you want to pay the knifemaker/craftsman less?
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If you lie in order to convince someone that the higher price is worth it - is the knife still not overpriced?

-Cliff
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It may be for a little while, but it does not take long before the knife is sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be sold if it has been mis-represented.
 
That does not answer the question, if the knife sells because of hype does the fact simply that it sells mean it is not overpriced?

-Cliff
 
While looking at a new catalog from Smoky Mountain Knife Works, I spotted a knife that makes my...ummm...point, if you'll excuse the term. It was an SOG Pentagon boot/neck knife, "originally designed as a backup for law enforcement and military personnel." The blade steel is AUS 6, and the price is $89.99.

Now I know SOG makes good knives, but a neck knife costing almost a hundred bucks is ridiculous. Perhaps if the blade steel had been S30V and coated in a nice finish, sure. Why not? But AUS6? I can find a decent neck knife for about thirty bucks (like the Bear Ninja, made from 440A, the Ka-Bar TDI Law Enforcement made from AUS8, or the Smith & Wesson boot/neck knife with 440C), and acceptable boot/neck knives for as little as $10.89. Your adversary isn't likely to enquire as to whether he was neutralized by a good quality steel knife or a junk quality steel knife.

As for custom made knives, I don't have any myself, but I have friends who have bought them (some from famous knife makers with waiting lists). I do notice that they spend more time in a safe than they do doing cutting chores. Their owners almost always carry a Spyderco, CRKT or Benchmade.

A. G. Russell said:
That pistol is made in thousands, mass produced by machine. The knives in that price category are done by hand or at least requiring large amounts of hand work by very skilled craftsmen. The machine operators are being paid $25-$50 an hour, why would you want to pay the knifemaker/craftsman less?
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It's immaterial how much anyone is being paid. You ultimately pay for what you get. If the knife is engraved with gold inlays and the blade is masterfully ground, honed and sharpened, then it sort of ceases to be a tool and, rather, becomes a work of art. And art is always expensive. Just like those engraved revolvers and automatics, how many will actually see use?
 
A. G. Russell said:
That pistol is made in thousands, mass produced by machine. The knives in that price category are done by hand or at least requiring large amounts of hand work by very skilled craftsmen. The machine operators are being paid $25-$50 an hour, why would you want to pay the knifemaker/craftsman less?
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Okay, let's say the knife costs half of the price of some quality pistol. The Czech Zbrojovka CZ 75 (all steel pistol, except handle slabs) is priced around 500 USD. The pistol is made serialy not in mass production btw. Sport shoes, TV's, PCs and similar consumer crap etc are mass produced. Randal knife (handcrafted) model 14 is priced 340 USD. Now the quality of Randal made knives is (compared to their price) quite low (edge holding is poor, low strength). The quality of CZ 75 is high. For less than two poor edge holding soft steeled Randall knives you get quality pistol (machine milled from a steel block) which is much more demanding to produce in order to function as expected than a simple fixed blade. To me the answer is clear, that knife is definately not worth not even 10% of that pistol.
 
OK! Great topic direction so far...
There are knives which are expensive to manufacture.
And there are knives which have prices that are manufactured!
Simply put,
There are knives with genuinely high manufacturing cost ie material,. labour, etc.
And knives which are absolutely over inflated either by plain marketing or human greed.
Business is plainly making money; and mostly done through mark-up's and eventually passing the cost to the consumer.
Buy what you need, not what you want.
When you can't afford to buy something you want, it's most probably just a passing need to waste more money.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
That does not answer the question, if the knife sells because of hype does the fact simply that it sells mean it is not overpriced?

-Cliff
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Correct. In given time it is not overpriced because manufacturer sells all he wants for given price.

If you used dishonest means (or even illegal means) to create the demand is different aspect.
 
Thanks, not the viewpoint I would have. I would define overpriced as the point at which the product would not sell if the actual facts were known. There are of course many reasons why products sell, performance, collecting, status symbols, personal attraction, etc. Thus the individuals themselves decide if the price is fiar/just to them based on those particular attractions. It is quote possible that it is overpriced in one aspect and underpriced in another.

-Cliff
 
I tend to see things as overpriced in comparison to other things. When a cheaper item can do the same things just as well (or often better) than a more expensive counterpart, the more expensive one is overpriced to me.

I used to find it a little severe to spend 500 dollars on a knife, but I could deal with it. Now my girlfriend is buying 2500 dollar vuitton purses because they're cute. Nothing special to them--these aren't DDR or Ken Onion customs--they don't look any different to me than a cheap Coach purse. She isn't troubled by this. To me it's patently absurd. My point is that overpricing in the knife world, in the grand scheme of overpricing, is relatively minimal. We can have something custom made for us, in laid with gems and gold, out of the most advanced steel ever created and mixed with other steels, like laminated zdp, with the most well engineered locking system, all developed with a 1/50th mm tolerance hand made to our specifications for maybe 1000 dollars. Or less than one half of a mid-grade piece of leather baggage that was mass produced.

We've got it good...
 
Thanks, not the viewpoint I would have. I would define overpriced as the point at which the product would not sell if the actual facts were known.
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That's the hypothetical model of a perfect market, where everyone has all the information, and the information is accurate and correct and people have time to decide rationally. Of course that doesn't actually exist in real life.

It also assumes people actually care one way or the other about "lies", and has been demonstrated repeatedly here and in life, that not nearly always the case either.

Perhaps there's some measure that can be devised such as an average moral influence to purchase factor. Or maybe regret after hoodwinked.

Otherwise I think the situation is adequately covered by the time honored advice "Buyer Beware" and "Live and Learn".
 
Hyped or not hyped (and sometime I feel that hype is confused with passion in some cases) basic economics still holds true that if the knife is selling and not sitting in inventory it is not over-priced. It might be overpriced for me or anyone else personally, but it is not overpriced in the general market.

Genuine hype based on untruths does not work in the long run when the knife industry is concerned. It does not take long for hype to fizzle.
 
Hyperborean said:
Okay, let's say the knife costs half of the price of some quality pistol. The Czech Zbrojovka CZ 75 (all steel pistol, except handle slabs) is priced around 500 USD. The pistol is made serialy not in mass production btw. Sport shoes, TV's, PCs and similar consumer crap etc are mass produced. Randal knife (handcrafted) model 14 is priced 340 USD. Now the quality of Randal made knives is (compared to their price) quite low (edge holding is poor, low strength). The quality of CZ 75 is high. For less than two poor edge holding soft steeled Randall knives you get quality pistol (machine milled from a steel block) which is much more demanding to produce in order to function as expected than a simple fixed blade. To me the answer is clear, that knife is definately not worth not even 10% of that pistol.
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I do not know any thing about Randalls but I sure agree with you about CZ firearms. :D:thumbup:
 
DaveH said:
That's the hypothetical model of a perfect market, where everyone has all the information, and the information is accurate and correct and people have time to decide rationally.
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I was not thinking of that model, just making a definition as based on my personal values. Quite frankly if I lie to sell something to someone at a higher price I think they would agree it was overpriced once they found out. I would find it absurd to say you can lie to justify pricing, just consider the results and extensions of that definition.

Bastid said:
Genuine hype based on untruths does not work in the long run when the knife industry is concerned. It does not take long for hype to fizzle.
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As just one of many counter examples, consider the extreme advantage that Fowler claims for his methods which have been directly opposed by Cashen as having NO basis in materials science and been directly contridicted by his work. Now either Cashen or Fowler is spreading misinformation because they are saying the complete opposite. Both of them sell highly on performance and yet one of them has to be hyping their products by definition.

-Cliff
 
Spent way to much time with Ed Fowler to be able to classify his words as hype (or for that matter Cashen either).

Passion yes, hype no. No way.
 
Nice avoid, the simple fact is that only one of those makers can be correct and the other is spreading misinformation. Since this concerns the performance then it is hype by definition. It is hardly the case that this is the only point of direct contention in the industry either, Mayers vs Bos on the heat treatment of 154CM is another, there are many such cases.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I was not thinking of that model, just making a definition as based on my personal values. Quite frankly if I lie to sell something to someone at a higher price I think they would agree it was overpriced once they found out.
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You are mixing two different time periods. Let's mark them "A" in which you were selling the product (colored blue in your quote) and "B" where person finds out you lied (colored red in your quote).

At "B", that's AFTERWARDS person (better would be say public since 1 person doesn't have to represent significant change in demand) finds out you lied, his (or public) demand for your product decreases (or disappears completly) and THEN you can say your product is overpriced (or in other words, you can't sell how much you want for this price).

However at "A" when the buyer wasn't aware you are lying the price was right!


It shows it's not reasonable to rely on lies or hype in the long run but they can have significant results in short run.


Cliff Stamp said:
I would find it absurd to say you can lie to justify pricing, just consider the results and extensions of that definition.
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It's not absurd. It isn't moral but it can be part of your marketing strategy.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Nice avoid, the simple fact is that only one of those makers can be correct and the other is spreading misinformation. Since this concerns the performance then it is hype by definition. It is hardly the case that this is the only point of direct contention in the industry either, Mayers vs Bos on the heat treatment of 154CM is another, there are many such cases.

-Cliff
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I have personally spoken with Cashen AND Fowler.....Cashen did not claim to me the Fowler is full of crap.

He disagreed with some of what Ed puts forward, but not all of it.

Ed Schempp has been extremely impressed with the low temp forging and cycling that Fowler does....would you claim that Schempp does not know his metallurgy or has been hornswaggled by Fowler? Try again.

Could you please SPECIFICALLY reference the "Mayers vs Bos on the heat treatment of 154CM", and what are you contending.....please do not regurgitate Landes, refer us to his writings or reference him in any way, shape or form.....you made the allusion to a disparity of heat treatment methods....you back it up.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Nice avoid

-Cliff
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Not an avoid (I will leave that tactic to others ;))

What it is, is a simple fact based on actual direct experience rather than speculation and drawing illogical conclusions or putting words in peoples mouths when the people and their passion is not understood.
 
huugh said:
You are mixing two different time periods.
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No, I am simply defining the term so as to mean when the relevant information is known. I realize that your definition, if this is what you are using, will lead to a different conclusion.

Bastid said:
... rather than speculation and drawing illogical conclusions or putting words in peoples mouths when the people and their passion is not understood.
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Not speculation, and the passion is not relevant, we are talking again about FACTS not emotional issues, grain refinement and other material properties. The FACTS have been stated as such by Fowler and refuted clearly by Cashen.

You can read the words directly for yourself on Swordforums and in the articles written by the man himself. Again, I am talking about physical properties only, this is what is relevant when the discussion is about performance hype.

How someone feels about knifemaking is not relevant if they say for example "420HC has higher wear resistance than 154CM". That statement is untrue, a lie, and spreads misinformation. It does not matter if it was said by someone completely new to knives or a maker with 30 years experience.

-Cliff
 
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