Australian Hardwoods and Axes

Not really sure, its pretty obtuse at least compared to something like the oxhead feller I have in canada, (going off memory) its what I would call a utility edge, as it doesn't extend from poll to edge, but about 1/2 inch of secondary bevel. But in general you are thinking I'm better off with a thinner edge? I'm guessing I'm mostly going to be running into eucalypts, but I'm not as familiar with the ID and the characteristics.

But I'm honestly less familiar with wood here, as well as axes, not too many people I know use them here. Growing up in the canadian prairies axes were a different story having to spit wood to keep the house warm. But that stuff was nothing like what's here. White poplar at about -25C comes apart like you are splitting styrofoam, the only wood that was tough to split was stuff that was too wet, and it absorbed the ax, or so knotted it turned back on itself.
 
Not really sure, its pretty obtuse at least compared to something like the oxhead feller I have in canada, (going off memory) its what I would call a utility edge, as it doesn't extend from poll to edge, but about 1/2 inch of secondary bevel. But in general you are thinking I'm better off with a thinner edge? I'm guessing I'm mostly going to be running into eucalypts, but I'm not as familiar with the ID and the characteristics.

But I'm honestly less familiar with wood here, as well as axes, not too many people I know use them here. Growing up in the canadian prairies axes were a different story having to spit wood to keep the house warm. But that stuff was nothing like what's here. White poplar at about -25C comes apart like you are splitting styrofoam, the only wood that was tough to split was stuff that was too wet, and it absorbed the ax, or so knotted it turned back on itself.

Poplar splits easier than anything. Closest comparison to Canuck woods would probably be elm. Your angles are mostly to achieve a balance of durability, cutting depth, and chip angle. Harder woods tend to chip better while softer woods may have longer fibers resisting chips. You will have to find the characteristics of the trees, as have been posted.

Unless you're specializing the axe you have to go for general characteristics, but even then it is mainly cutting that you will focus on. This means adapting cutting angle and chip size for the type of tree you are working on. For example, you can't open a chip on a spruce or birch like you can on a maple or fir as the fibers make it very difficult to pop the chip.

I'm no expert, but I think a Fiskars may need a slight increase in the primary bevel angle and a decrease in the secondary. You'd have to share those angles to know more.
 
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Poplar splits easier than anything.

I think alder owns that distinction. Set it up on the block and simply show it that you have an axe and it will quarter itself in fright.

But it depends on the poplar.

I busted up some big rounds of black cottonwood (a poplar) a couple years ago. It had a twisted and intertwined grain that made it difficult to split - though not as bad as elm. It was surprisingly dense after drying and burned wonderfully - quiet and hot with no pops. It made me totally rethink burning cottonwood. I'll never turn my nose at it again.
 
But in general you are thinking I'm better off with a thinner edge? I'm guessing I'm mostly going to be running into eucalypts, but I'm not as familiar with the ID and the characteristics.

I ran off a couple of recommendations when starting on the rehab game. 20 to 25 degrees from Leonard Lee in The Complete Guide to Sharpening. A more complex geometry was suggested by Cook in The Ax Book - a key part was 15 degrees included angle half an inch behind the edge.

I don't recall either differentiating for density but my gray matter is getting grayer. With edge tools in woodwork generally you do - steeper bevels for harder wood. Helps with edge retention.

I'm a newbie at axes and old hands here will have years of working out what works best for their timber. Like any tool it's all about trade-offs. Hard steel for edge retention, softer steel to avoid the edge chipping. A slim bit for penetration, thicker to avoid turning the edge. What others are there?
 
I'm a newbie at axes and old hands here will have years of working out what works best for their timber. Like any tool it's all about trade-offs. Hard steel for edge retention, softer steel to avoid the edge chipping. A slim bit for penetration, thicker to avoid turning the edge. What others are there?
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I agree but in the case of softwoods it won't matter about the edges and the same for lower classes of hardwoods but your axes will suffer and the efficiency of every cut would get worse. This is only a concept not gospel so don't hate me if I'm wrong.
 
Yeah black poplar is not fun, toxic sap, nasty knots. the only stuff we ever got to season well was some that were felled and left laying at the start of the summer, they had leaves all summer, and were only dried out by fall. bucked and split, it still took a year to season after that.

worst stuff I've had to fight with here was actually a palm tree. it was like cutting a wet rope. heavy, abrasive, and just soaked up impact energy. I was glad it was only about 4inch diameter. made a real mess of everything.
 
How does this work Grimalkin?

I bucked a 15" spruce (soft) with my 2 1/4 agdor recently. Blade got stuck lots compared to a more American design with a high centerline (or convex cheeks). Only the centre makes contact with the wood, the rest of the blade is free, so sticking less results.

With flat faces like the Swedish designs, the whole blade is making contact with the wood, causes lots of stuck blades in my experience.

When I first got into axes the Swedes were what I wanted, now I'm all about the vintage American. I can thank Gransfors though, without them I wouldn't have found this forum. And without this forum wouldn't have discovered vintage American.,
 
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Thanks. Trying to get my head around this. By convex cheeks do you mean a vertical or horizontal bulge?
 
Thanks. Trying to get my head around this. By convex cheeks do you mean a vertical or horizontal bulge?

The bulge goes horizontaly from blade to the eye really. Here's a profile of my agdor (flat cheeked):

IMG_20160303_142739.jpg


And here's a profile of a new bit I am working on from Kelly Works:
IMG_20160402_110929.jpg


You can see how the blade is thinner on edge's (top and bottom) then in the middle, it bulges out. I am just literally getting into american designs, there are many on here that you can probably glean from more than I.
 
Very true, alder just has very little heat and is mainly only good for open fires because of the medicinal smoke.

Pacific coast Red (I think) Alder is quite different from Speckled Alder of the east. These are real trees and not wetland border shrubs. And Square_Peg is correct about how wonderfully easy it splits. It's in the same league as White Ash far as I'm concerned.
 
The bulge goes horizontaly from blade to the eye really. Here's a profile of my agdor (flat cheeked):

IMG_20160303_142739.jpg


And here's a profile of a new bit I am working on from Kelly Works:
IMG_20160402_110929.jpg


You can see how the blade is thinner on edge's (top and bottom) then in the middle, it bulges out. I am just literally getting into american designs, there are many on here that you can probably glean from more than I.

Yeah, I see what you mean. My bigger Agdor has similar geometry to yours. But my Husqvarna Forest axe has the bulging cheeks so maybe it's not just a Scandi/American divide.

I'm thinking of treating myself to one premium axe. It has to do hardwoods so the geometry has to be right, like the OPer. I'm wondering if the penetration is small whether the bulge will make much difference. The Agdor does about 3/8" in the sample billet.

Tuatahi make a Work Axe and they recommend the chisel grind for hardwoods (see the pic). Seems to have quite a bulge in the cheeks. (It's a heavy thing with a 29.5" haft - neither of these excites me).

Tuatahi work axe bit
 
Pacific coast Red (I think) Alder is quite different from Speckled Alder of the east. These are real trees and not wetland border shrubs. And Square_Peg is correct about how wonderfully easy it splits. It's in the same league as White Ash far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I'm talking about red alder. And it's great smoke for cooking, too. It's the traditional wood for smoking salmon. But it's great for beef or pork, too.
 
Ziggy, I've written a few things in the past about the high-centerline. I believe it is a balance issue rather than a chipping issue. There are a few reasons for this:
- It is not historical documentation but theorising at an attempt to regain axe knowledge and skill which has given us the idea of the high-centerline.
- The only historical discussion I have found regarding the centerline is in "Woodcraft" by E.H. Kreps. It is clearly a matter of balance for the axe, placing the mass of the steel in the top third so that it may swing in a crescent shape properly. Only axes which require a full-circle of swing benefit from central balance.
- Many of the axes that tend to have a high centerline are American axes made in hardwood-dominant regions.
- Users may be misinterpreting the reason for the chip as most wood-reading knowledge has been lost. They may also be using different hardwood axes in softer or long-fibered trees.

- If precise measurements have not been taken on a large number of axes then we may be dealing with a mix of axes that were poorly ground from the factory, designed with splitting/dual-purpose in mind, designed with the high-centerline of balance in axes which were becoming wider (and so required a greater increase in apparent high-centerline), or designed for greater heel and toe penetration (a much more significant factor in hard woods).
- The high-centerline, understand as thicker cheeks, decreases efficiency as each depth of cut requires a much greater angle increase. As well, it increases the chance of glancing blows.
- In Nova Scotia and New Brunswick the preferred axes were flat and thin-cheeked axes like the Maine axes (Spiller is specifically mentioned in historical accounts as the best) - this is an area with a lot of red spruce, for the core of the shipping industry as well as general construction. Spruce is one of the hardest woods to chip because of the length and durability of the fibers.

- In the hardest and most dense woods it makes very little sense to rely on thick cheeks to chip as it is unlikely the depth of cut will reach those cheeks anyway. Most of the chipping is from the angle of cut, transition of primary bevel angle to secondary, and the depth of cut combined with plate diameter. It is when the edge cuts deep enough and at the right angle that the chip pops.
- Where the theory of the high centerline focuses it is over an inch behind the edge, essentially at a negative angle to the primary and secondary bevels. This means that it generates very little force compared to the primary and secondary angles. If anything besides balance it helps to relieve the partial plate from closing back in on the edge/bevel, creating an opportunity to pull the axe back out the way it went in.

- There is no physical difference in popping a chip with a high-cheek or flat cheek-axe given the same angles of primary, secondary, and hollow.
- To my knowledge there is no mention of the centerline in the Forestry Service, but their gauges specify the arch of the bit and a separate gauge for the heel and toe. Their focus is on a balance of cutting ability and durability from a general service axe, so it would be interesting to see if there is any documentation in regards to the development of the gauge. Perhaps that would confirm if the thicker cheeks are intended for chipping or edge release out of the corner (a corner is the connection between the uncut and cut sections within a notch or plate, where you are most likely to jam your axe if you don't leave the heel or toe out of the wood).

- Given that the toe is much harder to cut with and very little changes were made in the axe to make the toe cut better, then we have to imagine that axemakers created the centerline for swing and toe-release balance rather than popping a chip. It is good to keep in mind that your axe should come out of the wood the same way it goes in - meaning that if the heel goes in first and cuts inwards towards the centerline, then the exposed toe naturally creates a point of balance for the centerline to leverage the heel out of the corner.

- Over time axemen learned that cutting harder woods requires focus on heel cuts and so it would make sense to develop geometry which would improve that area.
- Here we can imagine a couple of things: first, that the lesser ability of the toe to cut requires less of a lever to pull the axe out, and secondly, that the different angle of leverage pulling out of the outside corner and the inside corner demands a high-centerline for cut exit. At both the outside and inside corners you are pulling the heel out first; the outside cut-exit requires that the heel comes out and away from the corner while the inside cut requires an exit whereby the toe leans against the corner as the heel comes out. Two points of leverage which makes the high-centerline appropriate in the upper third of the axe.

- The majority of plate and chip geometry stems from reading the wood, knowing wood types, and adjusting the angle of cut and notch size for that specific wood; axe geometry compliments this but is not the whole of it. Timbersports competitors have basically confirmed this knowledge in saying that axe geometry is preference and that one still must cut at different angles according to the wood type (Arden Cogar Jr. says this).
- My own thinking is that high cheeks are meant to keep pressure from closing in on the heel or toe of the axe when cutting the corners. This creates someting of a pop and automatic release of that edge from the corner.

None of this is necessarily correct, nor is it to say others are wrong (Axeconnected and others here have created and thought a lot about the ideas of the high-centerline), it is simply my own attempt to work through what is largely lost knowledge.
 
Thanks for an analytical and thought provoking post!

In these terms does the long and quite curved edge of the Tuatahi make sense then for hardwood?
 
The red alder ain't bad. Heat/effort is pretty damn good because it splits to easy.

Big Leaf Maple is my local favorite. It's plentiful. Splits pretty good. Relatively energy dense. Burns clean and quiet. And try some in the smoker sometime. It's sweet. Blends well with hickory as an alternative to blending with fruitwood. Even good just by itself.
 
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