Axis lock opinion?

I have never had a problem with any lock. The axis lock is by far my favorite lock though, all my axis locks are nearly as smooth as my sebenza at a fraction of the cost. The axis makes flipping them open easy and flipping them closed even easier, which brings me to another advantage; axis locks do not place any fingers in the path of the closing blade. Liner locks and frame locks obviously do and ive cut my self with numerous backlocks trying to close them with one hand, especially with triad locks. Accidental cuts are much easier to avoid with Axis locks IMHO and I dont need to think about being careful. I have never had an omega spring break, and I have carried my Kulgera for 2 years and am always playing with it. I have also never had a problem with dirt jamming up the mechanism either. Theres also the fact that axis locks are redundant and should function if one spring breaks, and while they are weaker springs than other lock types there is a backup if one fails.
 
I would be curious to know how everyone would feel if their Omega springs broke on them one day, out of the blue.

Would the axis lock still be your favorite lock, if it once was?

I am asking this question with sincerity because it once happened to me, and it really did change the way I look at the Axis lock.

It takes a while to fill out the paperwork to send to Benchmade and then some more time for them to return your knife to you. There are also shipping expenses. -All of this because of a thin little spring breaking, and it doesn't break because of rough use, it beaks just from opening and closing the blade...

It happened to me. One of the Omega springs in my knife broke that I was unaware of and the knife still functioned well.* Since I couldn't take it apart without voiding the warranty there was no real way to tell that one spring was broken. Every once in a while the knife would make a squeaky noise when opening, but it was very subtle and I never thought twice about it since oiling it stopped the noise. Then one day the lock just totally stopped working and the blade would swing freely from the handle; not locking closed or open -rendered useless. Both springs had broken.

This was a 940 model and I had only owned it for less than a year with occasional use and zero abuse.

I really like the Axis lock, but it definitely isn't my favorite lock. If I had never had an Omega spring break on me, then it just may have become my favorite lock. I know that omega springs breaking is very uncommon, and that is why I wanted to ask everyone the question, "If it happened to you, would your opinion of the Axis lock change?" Because it did for me, regardless of how rare it is for an Omega spring to break.

*It is my best guess, based on my experiences with this knife that one spring broke first, then the second instead of both at the same time. I could be mistaken, but it seems to be the most reasonable explanation.
 
I have had one spring break on my EDC that has been flipped open and closed a countless amount of times. My opinion has not changed and it is still my favorite lock for a handful of reasons. Once I found I had a broken spring I took the scales off my knife. Ten minutes layer with 2 pair of needle nose pliers and some 0.025" MIG welding wire and I had 2 new omega springs that have worked perfectly ever since. In case anyone does this for themselves, it is best to make 2 springs as they seem to match each other better than having one stock spring and one hand made. If one is stronger than the other then it loads the lock bar uneven and you can get a small amount of vertical play. Anyways, it was an easy fix to a rare problem and it works great.
 
I am a huge fan of the axis lock. Keep in mind SOG does not use an actual axis lock, but a similar style lock called the arc lock. The arc lock is not as strong as the axis. I love the lock up on the griptilian I have and love that I can make the blade free swing open and closed by pulling back the lock and flipping it lightly. Very strong too, I do not imagine it failing.
 
my axis lock knives are really play things. sure i use them but more often than not i just open and close them absent mindedly. I feel like axis locks are good for urban environments but when im out in the woods there is a lockback or linerlock with me. i still trust a well made lockback more than an axis or liner. guess im just old school like that. tho my gayle bradley has a very beefy liner lock (tho hard to disengage, lot rougher on the thumbs than a sleek bm530)
 
My opinion on the axis lock is mixed. I appreciate the lock for normal use as it locks up with no play and is easy to use. The one flaw that I notice about the design is that the hardened lock bar relies on less hardened steel liners for forces applied to the spine of the knife (spine whacks and batoning. Granted this is abuse, but I will say that BM markets many of their knives as hard use, which I've always found problematic given that folders can't really handle "hard-use" by my definition.). This is a problem for me because if the liner becomes worn or is damaged from an impact than the lock bar is allow to move and the lock can fail. This is of special concern for newer axis lock knives where the lock bar doesn't travel far up the tang. It also depend on how BM designs the tang ramp...some designs have a steeper angled tang than others (i.e. presidio vs griptilian).
 
You say it's a problem but have you ever experienced a deformed liner or read about it happening to someone else? I've never heard of that and I'm sure if it happened to someone it would be on the forums. Do you know what the hardness of the liners actually is or just assuming they are not hardened at all? Even if the hardened lock bar deformed the liners the lock isn't going to just fail all the sudden. The lock bar is still blocking the blade tang so there might be some blade play if it were to actually happen. Assuming the lock bar doesn't still travel further up the blade tang past any deformation as it is designed to do to compensate for wear.

If the AXIS worries you then what lock would you feel can take a ton of abuse and never fail? I would assume that means you are a fan of the Triad lock since it is what is new and everyone seems to think is the absolute strongest because of the Cold Steel Videos. In which case I assume you think a stop pin supported by only G10 is stronger than a lock bar supported by steel liners? I don't have any numbers so won't come to any conclusions but I would think steel is stronger than G10. There are probably a very few people who know the actual strength of different knives and lock types and one of them is Sal Glesser. Spyderco has the only machine I know of to scientifically test and break knives and he says that well made back locks and frame locks, compression lock, CBBL, Triad, and AXIS are all about the same strength. Which makes sense since most of them rely on forces being transferred to a pin, which transfers the forces to the liners to 'dissipate', so should have similar strengths if similar size materials are used.
 
Reeek said:
I think the Axis lock is a darn good design but I don't drink the Axis lock Kool-Aid and never will. I just think it's a pretty darn good design but with it's own flaw(s) like all other designs.

The two things I don't care for with the Axis lock is the feeling and tone of the closing detent. I feel like the detent starts too early and snaps before I'm ready for it sometimes (by design I believe) and I don't care for that metal on metal feeling and sound when you close the Axis lock firmly, that "boing" sound and feeling. I tend to respond to that sound and feeling a lot like finger nails on a chalk board. It's just me though.

Then there is of course the potential for the Omega Spring to break at a bad time. Not the end of the world as I know they are reasonably reliable but it's still a risk none the less.
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:thumbup::thumbup:What he said.:thumbup::thumbup:

I can sit and open/close my new Para 2, or Military, or AFCK, or even Blur just for fun... ...I'd do it for entertainment while waiting in line etc. if it were socially acceptable. :D

The Axis lock, not so much. It works, it's efficient, effective, and all that but for me it lacks character. It just doesn't have the nice snick open/close of other locks. I've had several Axis Locks, I think I'm down to just my Ares 730 that I carried for a couple years. There have been a couple others that look good on paper but I've ended up selling on ebay for a loss... ...940, 943, 960, 950, 520, I think that's it. To me the spring is a non-issue, I've never had one break, it's redundant, If they both break I'd send it to benchmade and they'd fix it.
 
I have one knife with this type of lock, SOG Mini Vulcan, I love the quick deployment and even better the quick retraction. I think it is good for light to moderate work but I think it will have problems with heavy work, but this type of knife is not for hard work anyway. I like the compression lock on the Para II and with a little practice you can put the blade away pretty quick, not as fast as the Axis but I think it is a much stronger lock.
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
You say it's a problem but have you ever experienced a deformed liner or read about it happening to someone else? I've never heard of that and I'm sure if it happened to someone it would be on the forums. Do you know what the hardness of the liners actually is or just assuming they are not hardened at all? Even if the hardened lock bar deformed the liners the lock isn't going to just fail all the sudden. The lock bar is still blocking the blade tang so there might be some blade play if it were to actually happen. Assuming the lock bar doesn't still travel further up the blade tang past any deformation as it is designed to do to compensate for wear.

If the AXIS worries you then what lock would you feel can take a ton of abuse and never fail? I would assume that means you are a fan of the Triad lock since it is what is new and everyone seems to think is the absolute strongest because of the Cold Steel Videos. In which case I assume you think a stop pin supported by only G10 is stronger than a lock bar supported by steel liners? I don't have any numbers so won't come to any conclusions but I would think steel is stronger than G10. There are probably a very few people who know the actual strength of different knives and lock types and one of them is Sal Glesser. Spyderco has the only machine I know of to scientifically test and break knives and he says that well made back locks and frame locks, compression lock, CBBL, Triad, and AXIS are all about the same strength. Which makes sense since most of them rely on forces being transferred to a pin, which transfers the forces to the liners to 'dissipate', so should have similar strengths if similar size materials are used.
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Yes I've had an axis lock knife fail in this manner. I was a bit sad about it to be honest. For me, I'm just very curious as to how much folders can take. We're bombarded by statements of strength by companies and consumers, but the real data isn't available to consumers to really answer our questions. Unfortunately, this leads to mass speculation and a bunch of subjective BS...mostly from consumers. For example: Framelocks. Why do manufacturers always make "hard use" knives with framelocks and why do consumers think Framelocks are the pinnacle of toughness. In opinion, they are simply flawed by design. I would love to buy a few thousand knives and systematically test them...but I can't afford such an effort.

Back the my concerns about the axis lock. I think the design is good and could be improved upon by hardening and strengthening the liners to resist more impact forces (the type of forces consumers are most likely to experience. Who puts static weight on the end of their knives?). Secondly, I think Benchmade should insure that the lock bar rides further up the tang. I've learned that the weakness of most knives isn't the pivot or the stop-pin or a spring, but, rather, a slight change in tolerances allowing the lock to slip...whether it be a frame lock, axis lock, back lock etc. The knives that make me feel safer are those that avoid failing from a slight change in tolerance even if they are ultimately damaged. Its my opinion that the axis lock knives or similar knives (i.e. ball lock, arc-lock) are susceptible to failure due to small changes in tolerances.
 
Please don't compare the ball lock and the arc-lock to the BM Axis lock.
 
On deformed/failed liners, I'm going to have to say I'm from Missouri... ;)

zero-speed said:
Yes I've had an axis lock knife fail in this manner. I was a bit sad about it to be honest. For me, I'm just very curious as to how much folders can take. We're bombarded by statements of strength by companies and consumers, but the real data isn't available to consumers to really answer our questions. Unfortunately, this leads to mass speculation and a bunch of subjective BS...mostly from consumers. For example: Framelocks. Why do manufacturers always make "hard use" knives with framelocks and why do consumers think Framelocks are the pinnacle of toughness. In opinion, they are simply flawed by design. I would love to buy a few thousand knives and systematically test them...but I can't afford such an effort.

Back the my concerns about the axis lock. I think the design is good and could be improved upon by hardening and strengthening the liners to resist more impact forces (the type of forces consumers are most likely to experience. Who puts static weight on the end of their knives?). Secondly, I think Benchmade should insure that the lock bar rides further up the tang. I've learned that the weakness of most knives isn't the pivot or the stop-pin or a spring, but, rather, a slight change in tolerances allowing the lock to slip...whether it be a frame lock, axis lock, back lock etc. The knives that make me feel safer are those that avoid failing from a slight change in tolerance even if they are ultimately damaged. Its my opinion that the axis lock knives or similar knives (i.e. ball lock, arc-lock) are susceptible to failure due to small changes in tolerances.
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zero-speed said:
Yes I've had an axis lock knife fail in this manner. I was a bit sad about it to be honest. For me, I'm just very curious as to how much folders can take. We're bombarded by statements of strength by companies and consumers, but the real data isn't available to consumers to really answer our questions. Unfortunately, this leads to mass speculation and a bunch of subjective BS...mostly from consumers. For example: Framelocks. Why do manufacturers always make "hard use" knives with framelocks and why do consumers think Framelocks are the pinnacle of toughness. In opinion, they are simply flawed by design. I would love to buy a few thousand knives and systematically test them...but I can't afford such an effort.

Back the my concerns about the axis lock. I think the design is good and could be improved upon by hardening and strengthening the liners to resist more impact forces (the type of forces consumers are most likely to experience. Who puts static weight on the end of their knives?). Secondly, I think Benchmade should insure that the lock bar rides further up the tang. I've learned that the weakness of most knives isn't the pivot or the stop-pin or a spring, but, rather, a slight change in tolerances allowing the lock to slip...whether it be a frame lock, axis lock, back lock etc. The knives that make me feel safer are those that avoid failing from a slight change in tolerance even if they are ultimately damaged. Its my opinion that the axis lock knives or similar knives (i.e. ball lock, arc-lock) are susceptible to failure due to small changes in tolerances.
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Happen to have any pictures? Like I said before I have never heard of that happening so would be interested in seeing it if it's possible. I am also curious what you would have had to be doing to deform the liners short of beating on it with a hammer. I would also think a dent in the liners would make the lock more secure as it would then not only have a spring holding it in place but a 'detent' for the lock bar to be cradled by when locked open. I agree that some locks can't have changes in tolerance but the lock bar in the AXIS is still going to cover the blade tang keeping it locked open if the liners get deformed or the pivot gets a little loose. The BB lock only has a small metal sphere blocking the tang and a change in tolerance can allow it to slide off the side of the tang. There are differences in the AXIS and it's clones.

I agree about frame and liner locks and have said many times that they are my least favorite locks. But I guess I don't see the same advertising because I haven't seen too many companies advertising hard use knives except Cold Steel, Strider, and maybe some fixed blade companies. At least not the big production companies like Benchmade, Spyderco, and Kershaw. But I don't read knife magazines all that often either. While I think hanging a bunch of weight off a blade isn't that good of a test, I doubt there are many consumers that stress their folding knives anywhere near what most can handle. Knives are meant to cut after all.

So I'm still curious what lock type you like if you don't like frame/liner locks or AXIS type locks? There aren't many left besides Triad/Back locks, compression locks, and a couple others that are more obscure.
 
zero-speed said:
Yes I've had an axis lock knife fail in this manner. I was a bit sad about it to be honest.
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I'd have to see it to really believe it.
My Griptilian trainer was used to do chin-ups on a tree limb (weight supported by spine of blade; I weigh 170 pounds), I did a stupid amount of full power spine whacks, and stabbed it into telephone poles so forcefully that the dull, blunt tip stabbed into the wood a fair bit.
No failure, so slippage, no bent liners.
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
Happen to have any pictures? Like I said before I have heard of that happening so would be interested in seeing it if it's possible. I am also curious what you would have had to be doing to deform the liners short of beating on it with a hammer. I would also think a dent in the liners would make the lock more secure as it would then not only have a spring holding it in place but a 'detent' for the lock bar to be cradled by when locked open. I agree that some locks can't have changes in tolerance but the lock bar in the AXIS is still going to cover the blade tang keeping it locked open if the liners get deformed or the pivot gets a little loose. The BB lock only has a small metal sphere blocking the tang and a change in tolerance can allow it to slide off the side of the tang. There are differences in the AXIS and it's clones.

I agree about frame and liner locks and have said many times that they are my least favorite locks. But I guess I don't see the same advertising because I haven't seen too many companies advertising hard use knives except Cold Steel, Strider, and maybe some fixed blade companies. At least not the big production companies like Benchmade, Spyderco, and Kershaw. But I don't read knife magazines all that often either. While I think hanging a bunch of weight off a blade isn't that good of a test, I doubt there are many consumers that stress their folding knives anywhere near what most can handle. Knives are meant to cut after all.

So I'm still curious what lock type you like if you don't like frame/liner locks or AXIS type locks? There aren't many left besides Triad/Back locks, compression locks, and a couple others that are more obscure.
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No pictures. Damage done during light batoning with the lock engaged, which I expect a well made folder to handle. The knife can easily handle batoning with the lock disengaged, but I wanted to test my hypothesis. What you describe as a detent doesn't work to the lock's advantage because it can allow the blade to rotate. This is more of a problem if the lock has early engagement because the blade can push the lock bar up into the "detent" and rotate into an unlocked position. The up shot is that I was able to easily fix the liner with a few file strokes to remove the damage allowing the lock bar to freely travel further up the tang. What struck me was how such minimal damage ( the induced detent measured less than 1/32") allowed the lock to fail. Had the lock been more worn in the outcome may have been different. I found this all very interesting because I've yet to read any destructive testing of the axis lock. The outcome tells me that the lock is great for it's intended purpose and it identifies a potential mode failure that I can guard against with changes in usage.

Favorite lock is the compression lock because it uses the best characteristics of the materials being used. The triad is strong and well built and easy to work on, but I don't like the overall design of CS knives.
 
The Government said:
I would be curious to know how everyone would feel if their Omega springs broke on them one day, out of the blue.

Would the axis lock still be your favorite lock, if it once was?
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Yes.

For EDC, the AXIS lock is hard to beat. If it ever fails, well, have a backup plan. Mine's called Izula.

And for the record, in years and years and years of use/ownership of BM AXIS lock folders in one of the hottest, most humid environments in the lower 48, I've had exactly ZERO failures.
 
zero-speed said:
No pictures. Damage done during light batoning with the lock engaged, which I expect a well made folder to handle. The knife can easily handle batoning with the lock disengaged, but I wanted to test my hypothesis. What you describe as a detent doesn't work to the lock's advantage because it can allow the blade to rotate. This is more of a problem if the lock has early engagement because the blade can push the lock bar up into the "detent" and rotate into an unlocked position. The up shot is that I was able to easily fix the liner with a few file strokes to remove the damage allowing the lock bar to freely travel further up the tang. What struck me was how such minimal damage ( the induced detent measured less than 1/32") allowed the lock to fail. Had the lock been more worn in the outcome may have been different. I found this all very interesting.
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Well that's the problem man, everybody knows you're supposed to "dis-engage" the lock on a folder if you "have to baton" with one!! One tap to start it then dis-engage the lock - you want to use the blade as a wedge and not damage your lock system. :yawn:

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[YouTube]Nn4zLpd_Cks[/YouTube] 6 min 45 seconds in

[YouTube]MH-yPC1XOtg[/YouTube]

Time for a new hypothesis....:D
 
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