Axis Lock & other disengagement mechanisms on THE HANDLE?!

Agreed,
Thats why I won't carry the linerlocks and most framelocks.

The backlocks I carry require you to fully depress the lock before it releases. Pretty near impossible to do with the palm of your hand.

That would be the Tarani journeyman kerambit, the Chinook, and the MPC from Extrema Ratio.

BTW--The Strider SnG framelock will not release by twisting the blade in any direction.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
Agreed,
Thats why I won't carry the linerlocks and most framelocks.

The backlocks I carry require you to fully depress the lock before it releases. Pretty near impossible to do with the palm of your hand.

Brownie
Click to expand...

I generally agree as well. Concerns about the axis lock pretty much remain in the realm of the theoretical, these hypothetical accidental disengagements aren't happening in real life. I'd be more concerned about real live disengagements with liner locks and the like. As many of you know, at this point I won't carry liner locks for anything above light-duty gentleman's knives.

Locks like the axis lock, rolling lock, and arc lock seem to be very solid as far as accidently disengaging due to hitting the button. Other accidental failure modes are possible, of course (e.g., REKAT's rolling locks were notoriously prone to fail a spine whack, though I assume Benchmade's versions won't).

Ditto the compression lock, which is a twist on the liner lock, but which delivers the lock reliability that liner locks only promised.

The framelock can be disengaged if you're holding the knife firmly and twist counterclockwise, but there are many good framelocks that don't seem to be vulnerable even to this. I'm not as down on them as brownie seems to be, I'll start paying more attention to this.

Generally speaking I've always loved a good lockback. I've more recently started to have problems with lockbacks as I started training in a system that uses the knife in reverse-grip, edge in. In this grip, your fingers lie right across the back of the lock, and a firm squeeze will compromise lock-up. So for me, a well-done lockback is fine for any grip but pakal, where it's unacceptable.

Joe
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
I'd suggest you go with the odds then and ignore Murphy whose sitting on your shoulder as I write this.

Forethought, it goes a long way. Because it hasn't happened does not mean it won't or isn't possible.

The backlock on the MPC Extrema Ratio I have on me right now has a crossbolt safety like a shotgun. The lockbar is physically blocked from disengaging under duress.

Considered one of the best men with a knife, Mike Janich, saw the axis lock as a potential problem immediately. Besides the fact I also happen to agree with that theory, I'd tend to listen when men of his caliber make such statements. He is prone to have an educated opinion and good insights, being one of the top instructors one can train under.

Brownie
Click to expand...

Ok, so what does Janich recommend as a locking system?

I agree that he is a professional, but I've not seen what he recommends. Yes, a fixed blade is the best knife for self defense situations, but most people neither have the luxury, or the ability to carry one.

I have yet to see the ER locking system, but I have heard it is a great lock. I myself favor the Axis lock, as well as framelocks and liner locks. I dislike lockbacks because my experience with them has been less than favorable.

This subject has been beat to death on these boards, but I have yet to hear the experts come right out and recommend a locking system for the folders that they would use, and not hesitate to stake their lives on.

I want to hear Janich's recommendations, as well as recommendations from other pros.

Non biased, honest recommendations, please, not product endorsements.
 
I'd think Mike carries what he thinks will work best for him and which he believes will be less prone to problems of disengagement and breakage during hard use [ worst case scenario ].

I know I do.

I don't trust the linerlocks to not wear and fail at the most inopportune time, I don't trust most framlocks for the same reason with the exception of the Strider SnG [ though I'm sure there are a few others ], certain lockbacks can be prone to disengagment as well [ thats why I only use the chinook, Tarani journeyman kerambit, and the MPC Extrema ratio ]. These lockbacks are designed not to release the lock until the lock is completely depressed which cuts that risk.

I like them all, I just don't trust them all. There's a world of difference in that statement.

Code3: The MPC has the crossbolt lock on which when engaged makes it as strong as a straight knife. Mine now sits IWB strong side along with the SnG strong side pocket. The MPC has one of, if not the strongest lock I have ever handled on a folder.

Keating carries the chinook quite often [ a lockback ]as well as others.

Brownie
 
brownie0486 said:

"I like them all, I just don't trust them all. There's a world of difference in that statement."



That about sums it for me too.


Mike
 
brownie - i've seen pics of the ER MPC on knife dealership pages. that's a hell of an extreme design, in terms of style & aesthetics (i guess that can be said about all ER knives). haven't handled one, but i mean whoa.. thing looks like something a stormtrooper would whip out. but i guess the market is there, since you seem to really like it! it's a bit too freaky for me, but that's a matter of taste. however, i would like to check out a nemesis just for kicks; i'm more of a drop point/spearpoint guy.
 
anonymous:

It weighs just over 1/2 pound and is 10+ inches long opened. Sits comfortably IBW but is a little much for my docker pockets.

I am carryig this knife for emergency situations where I may need a prybar and edge at the same time. The back end of the knife has a glassbreaker which may never be used but it's there.

I carry an E2 surfire on the belt and hardly have need for it. It's there for the same reason the MPC is, for emergency use if the lights go out.

The SnG is for defense and fast to presentation from the pocket, but the MPC will do all the heavy lifting I'll ever ask of it and not even breath hard.

If I have to use it, its a bad day for a lot of reasons. It's insurance, I'm not leaving home without it, like the light.

I thought I had found the best hard use knife in the SnG, then I held the MPC and understood immediately I was wrong.

Two different animals, two different mission statements.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
I've owened a lot of different knives over the years and I like to think I'm not biased towards any one brand or design. From my experience the Axis lock is my favorite so far. I'd like to check out this MPC knife with it's cross bolt lock. All I can say is I have a drawer full of folders and the BM710HSSR is the one I carry 95% (if not more) of the time as my EDC. I'm not crazy about liner locks, and while I like the integral lock on the Sebenza I can't open and close it as quickly as the Axis lock system so it usually stay at home unless I want something a little more dressy than the 710HSSR. I used to carry the BM Ares a lot, but I found I felt more secure with the blade on the 710HSSR, it's a mean SOB. :)

drawer.jpg
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
I see a Wegner in there?
Click to expand...

Yup, it's a Wegner! It is a nice piece, and was recommended to me a year or two ago on these very forums. :) The Staremate is pretty nice too.
 
sheesh. if u ever had to liquidate that drawer, post a thread :D

is that a gerber gator i see?? i lost one of those suckers in a move & cursed the day since. one of the very few truly ergonomically cozy folders i ever owned.
 
Originally posted by anonymous
sheesh. if u ever had to liquidate that drawer, post a thread :D

is that a gerber gator i see?? i lost one of those suckers in a move & cursed the day since. one of the very few truly ergonomically cozy folders i ever owned.
Click to expand...

Yup, got a Gerber Gator in there. It does have a nice feel to it, but a big bulky to go in the pocket, would need to use the carry pouch it came with (gotta find that...)
 
the disengagement mechanism of an auto is on the handle... And aren't autos suppose to be geared towards military/leo/combat situations
 
Manji:

I'm in the process of reviewing a UMS MT at this time.

Yes the autos are geared toward those people you mention, being a solution to a non existant problem in my experience.

About the only people who really need such a feature as an auto opener would be handicapped/disabled folks to my thinking.

Though the UMS is well engineered and executed properly by MT, when I handed it to some real world players at this years Riddle, I got the same opinions as mine.

A solution to a non existant problem for all but the disabled. They are slower to get into action than any good tactical folder if the operator knows even a little of what he is doing.

They have a cool factor for some, and then again, are illegal most everywhere as well, so how are you to be able to use it if when you do, you'll face charges whether your defense was justified or not?

Then there is the question of how strong the lock mechanism is on this type of folder as well.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
Personally, I think that plunge locks are SAFE but not particularly strong. I've taken apart several autos from BM and MT and the plunge/button doesn't "seem" that strong. However, usually the buttons on the autos are recessed so it's would be pretty difficult to actually accidently disengage it. On something like an axis lock I don't see how it can be accidently disengaged. You are not even touching the button when you are holding the knife. And I somewhat agree with you about autos being an answer to a non existant problem. Sure, under normal circumstances a proficient knife user can deploy a manual probably around the same speed as an auto. However under a high stress situation when motor skills are not at it's prime it MIGHT be easier to push a button then to use a thumbstud. But then, if that is your primarily concern shouldn't you be useing the wave feature rather then an auto?
 
Manji:

Good information on the takedown of the MT's, thanks'

Who uses bottons, thumbstuds or disks to open a folder?

Wave? did you say wave? I'm out to point from the pocket before that device with extremely gross motor skills.

I agree, the wave will be faster than any button knife for most.

Don't use them thar thingies to get to ready unless I'm in the company of sheeple.

Brownie
 
Buzzbait
710, Military and Sebenza Comparison

"While many people consider any liner lock to be comparatively weak, I’ve never had this lock fail on me.'



Esav Benyamin
Gold Member

Registered: Apr 2000
Location: Pompton Plains NJ USA
Posts: 6074
A good lockback, with the lock at the butt of the knife, should be pretty secure. A framelock, of course, is more secure being gripped than just lying around. The new Spyderco ball lock is very similar to an axis lock, but the ball doesn't protrude past the handle scales, so it's less likely to be tripped accidentally.

Axis locks are too easily released, no stiffness at all, to be as secure as their admirers would like to think. Once the adrenalin kicks in, and sweat or blood slicks the handle, anything can go wrong.


__________________


I fully agree with Esav & Buzzbait in the quotes taken from their posts above


This is my first post on this site, but I own 14 (at last count) of the Benchmade BM-800SBT & FSBT Linerlocks, have sold 100+ of the AFCK Series in various flavors as a FFL in years past, have used them hard & daily since the mid 1990's, & have never have had a unintentional closing, nor do I ever contemplate one,... as the Titanium Linerlock cannot be touched, much less released, by any hold on the knife, whereas the Axis lock can be released due to my hand contacting the release mechanism. :mad:


I am including a post I made to another web forum.

Slices,
I knew of a competitor years ago that used to demo a Emerson Design BM-975SBT Tanto Linerlock to LE Departments by repeatedly Stabbing thru the steel top of a 55 Gallon drum.
Also I had a close friend & customer that "for some strange reason", while on duty, decided he wanted to see how far his Benchmade Titanium Tanto would go into the top of the Department Commercial Grade Firesafe. With a "Full Power Stab" he actually made a small cut into the top of the safe, but the tip of the blade ended up like a "Concorde coming in for a landing" & is lucky his hand did not slide down the handle & lose some fingers. I looked at both the safe & the knife afterwards and thought " The Things some people do for Fun"! :eek:
I would consider both of the "Incidents" some of the reasons why I have full faith in my AFCK Linerlocks!


Notice that in the second incident, the TITANIUM & CARBIDE BLADE BENT WITH NO DAMAGE TO THE LINERLOCK MECHANISM!!!
If a Axis lock was used in either one of these "incidents" above,.... especially the second one, ..I believe there could have been a accidental release and/or lock failure. My reasoning on this is that the severe shock of impact would have caused a severe rebounding shock wave opposing blade travel in the knife. That force could exceed the spring force required to keep the Axis Lock in the closed position. The Axis is also more mechanically complex;... & dirt,corrosion, trash in the Axis Mechanism could cause or increase the likelihood of failure. Also as stated above, if your hands had blood on them, it could cause your hand to slip. Any of the above scenarios could cause blade lock release and/or failure with catastrophic results for any fingers in the way of the closing blade.

The liner lock in my AFCK's cannot be accidentally released by any of the scenarios above due to...no small springs to break or keep it closed, only a large piece of titanium that is part of the frame of the knife....& a knife has a rebound shock wave in the direction opposing tip travel or blade travel, ....& the Linerlock release is in neither of those directions.

In case anyone is wondering what I knowledge I used to formulate this post. My EDC knife since the mid 1990's has been one of my AFCKs & I have used them hard. Quite a few of the 100+ AFCKs, not considering the Benchmade Emerson Tanto Linerlocks, etc... that I have sold,.... were to friends & family who also EDC them & not once have I heard a negative remark about the Linerlock Mech (with the exception of Females who have chipped a nail trying to release the blade ;))
My background is in Engineering. I currently work in the field of robotics & automation and deal with complex mechanical systems on a daily basis.
At the same time,......I am a firm believer in KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) & Mr Murphy.

LG1
 
Just in case, in a combat situation, i have to grip with the index and middle finger into the edge, to have a realistic chance to slip back and release the lock. In that situation i wouldn´t care much, if the blade is cutting my fingers on top:D :D

Theoretically, you can push back the bar, but the ramped notch is wide enough not to release the blade, as you accidentally push back the bar, it will slide out and lock again.

Everythin, which locks, can be unlocked, right, but to unlock, the lock has to be touched right. And therefor, the axis is far away.

To get more secure: Smack the knife open, so the bar stucks in so hard, you will hardly release it.

If you don´t believe this, grind the butons down, so they are moe slippery.

:D

I got the 806 and the 5000A, both are very secure.
 
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