Axis locks are a poor design

Artfully Martial

Artfully Martial

Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Messages
4,761
Eh. Sounds like the omega springs broke, to me. This has happened to lots of people here, including myself. It has happened far too many times over a couple years for it to be a "bad batch". It's just poor design, which I saw from the start. I bought one anyway since even with the flawed springs, it's a great design.


Another member here posted this statement earlier, and I was just wondering if that many people are having axis lock failures. I love my axis lock benchmade, and it seems invulnerable, so I'm surprised to hear about this and about the failure of another user's axis lock.

How many folks are having axis problems?
 
I've had mine for about 5 years, a BM 730 Ares, no failure yet, although I don't carry it as much any more,I carry a Crawford One Hand Knife in it's place, it's much flatter and doesn't leave print when in my pocket) I did EDC the Ares for about 2 1/2 years. :thumbup:
 
I had a couple. No problems, but I didn't use them too much.

I think Benchmade said they changed the spring material after a while. It's possible "old" ones are still in stock at some dealers.
 
Upon rereading what I wroter earlier, I did come across a little gruff. No, there probably aren't "lots" of broken springs compared to how many axis locks are out there. Guess I'm still just a little bitter since mine was one of them, and I got cut twice because of it. (don't believe everyone who says the axis lock is still reliable with just one spring.)

I suppose the main reason I like to pick on this design, is because I feel they could have easily used a different spring design that was far less prone to breaking. Instead of spreading the force over such a short piece of wire, if they had used coil springs, the force would be spread over a much longer piece of wire. A coil spring would also only require a "channel" to be milled in the handle material, instead of such a large unsupported area.
But as I said, it was still not enough to keep me from buying an axis lock knife, and I'd gladly do so again because all the advantages outweigh this, in my opinion.

But just to make sure it didn't look like I was inventing the issue, I took some time to search for threads where people did have omega springs break. And of course I didn't look through every thread that turned up on a search. Several of these threads are old, so perhaps they have done something to improve the design in recent years. But if the gentleman in that other thread had his break on a new knife, well,... it leaves me wondering.

Here's one in post #11 in this thread. You'll of course notice there were lots more folks who chimed in who never had any problem with their springs.
Post #2 here.
Post #7 and post #15 here.
Post #1 here.
Post #8 here.
Happened twice to this guy. In post #16 of that same thread, another fellow says he had four springs break on him in a 1 1/2 year period.
'Nuther one. Also mention of another guy in the German forum with broken omega springs.
'Nuther one.
My own complaint.
Post #15 here.
'Nuther one. One more.
 
No probs to report as of yet with a 705 and a 710.

I am wondering, however, how BM handles cases of spring breakage/malfunction.
 
the possum said:
(don't believe everyone who says the axis lock is still reliable with just one spring.)
Click to expand...

I was always suspicious of that. With one spring, the lock piece is not pushed straight. The washer-like ends keep it from tilting too far, but even titlting a little would make me nervious. But I always figured I was just worrying too much. I always open knives "properly," not flipping them, so I would notice if the springs were half as strong as much as I would expect to notice if a piece of lint prevented a lock from engaging.

Spyderco's ball bearing lock is very similar in function, but they use a round ball instead of a short axle and the springs (two, one inside the other) are regular coils pushing the ball straight from behind. They aren't perfected yet IMO, but I like the general idea.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Do any knives other than the poliwog use it?
Click to expand...

The Dodo and one or two variations of some new honker of a rescue knife.

I love my Dodo and Poliwog. How did I ever live without them???
 
I've personally repaired two broken springs. None of my own personal ones have been trouble though.

I've often wondered if the springs would be affected by extreme cold or not. Other than that they should out live the user. The only thing bad about the design in my opinion is the way the lock buttons bump your index finger at times trying to open the blade. I know on my 420 that my index has stopped the blade from opening by inadvertantly holding the lock button so it won't move to allow the blade up. It happens all the time too so I know it has to be noticed by others. The buttons are right where I want to put my finger when I pull the knife out to use it. Same way with my Ares before I sold it but not as bad.

Simple fix would be to recess the button tops just a bit more to get them down out of the way some so your finger can't interfere with its path when holding the handle.

Other than that I really like mine.
 
the possum said:
No, there probably aren't "lots" of broken springs compared to how many axis locks are out there.
Click to expand...

A high defect rate is still actually low, when you factor in the amount of safe queens and paper cutters, the number of reported problems is always going to be small even on problematic products. What I would look for is the relative number of complaints and specifically comments from guys like Joe and Steve who have shown to be discriminating when it comes to folders. After all if you never have a problem with locks then it doesn't mean much if you don't have one with the axis obviously.

-Cliff
 
For self defense the compression lock seems as likely to perform well to me as any. To me the main thing to look at is how the knife handles thrusting forces and both the axis and the compression seem to be unaffected by these type of stabs. I've pounded my 420 in the work table in my shed and it didn't seem to hurt anything. I trust it and after seeing the video on the axis lock failing over at the Spyderco forum I did spine whack it and it didn't budge.

As I said the buttons stick out a bit but that is an easy fix if it bothered me that much. Truth is I waved my knife and that did away pretty much with the index finger problem.

Seems like if the possibility of accidentally releasing the blade by pulling back the button during a withdraw was an issue that it would be a simple matter of putting a lock for the button (a lock for the lock so to speak) right behind the button on one side so you could activate it manually with your thumb or index finger by shoving a pin or bar like a cam lock into the area the button slides in. This should effectively prevent the button from moving back to the position to release the blade until you physically moved it yourself. This lock could be incorporated into a G10 handle scale easily since all it has to do is prevent the button from coming backwards. I could probably do it using scrap titanium in my shop and a spring of some kind in a routed cut out under the handle scale of my 420 in pretty quick order.
 
Kind of a LAWKS for axis? Interesting.

As for the axis lock "buttons" sticking out and getting in the way of thumb flicking, if I'm understanding you right, you might want to just do the axis flick, with the lock pulled down and then an easy wrist movement. This opens just as fast as the thumbstud flick, in my opinion, and it might solve the annoyance for you.

At least on my minigrip, I don't see accidentally release being a realistic possibility, if you keep your thumb where you're supposed to (on the spine).

But the compression lock keeps any part of you from touching the compression lock during use, at least on my para, which is pretty impressive.
 
My Axiseses both work great. I consider it the best of all the available locks out there. The Compression lock is great but it doesn't keep the knife shut the way an Axis lock does. It still relies on a ball detent.

That video of the Axis lock failing smacks of funny business to me.
 
There is no ball detent in a compression lock. I also thought there was at first but Sal corrected me. It doesn't have one.

My Wave mod pretty much took away the problem I was running into with my index getting in the way of the button. If I had not done that I'd have just taken the buttons down so they didn't stick up quite as much.
 
STR said:
There is no ball detent in a compression lock. I also thought there was at first but Sal corrected me. It doesn't have one.
Click to expand...

OK, now I'm intrigued. How does it stay closed? Either way, it behaves as if it uses a ball detent, in that it stays closed over only a few degrees of movement. But still, now I'm curious.
 
The blade is kept in by the resistance of the springs (on the axis lock)...the little bar has to be moved down to allow the blade to move, and it's pushed up by those springs. It's actually rather brilliant in its simplicity.

This is cool if the knife is carried tip up, and my minigrip is. But I don't particularly care if it's tip down. People are so hard on ball detent, but if it works, it works--and it works.

Trying to figure out on the compression lock
 
IIRC, there were one or two compression lock models that used a ball detent. I think older versions of the Salsa did. However, with most compression lock knives, there’s a cutout in the tang that the liner leaf falls into to keep the blade closed.

The cutout is on the stamp side of the blade and mostly hidden from view, depending on the model. You can see it if you open the blade and look at it edge-on though.

Flip the knife over so you’re looking at the spine, then slowly close it. If you keep an eye on the liner, you’ll see it spring over into the cutout when blade is fully closed.

It’s a neat idea that doesn’t require any extra parts. Unfortunately, the system works better on some knives than others. For instance: My Lil’ Temperance stays closed very solidly, but it took hardly any force to open a Yojimbo I used to own. I think there can be variation within a model too.
 
the possum said:
don't believe everyone who says the axis lock is still reliable with just one spring
Click to expand...

You don't need to believe, You can simply see that, if You haven't see it yet:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359579

I tried it also in the meantime, with same result.

But: the point isn't "I can stay calm now and wait till the second spring breaks".

The point is, an omega-spring break is not so tragic, as for example a spring break in a backlock, a liner-lock malfunction, or similar cases - because (firstly) an omega spring isn't a locking element and stays only under its own tension and (secondly) there are two springs, so if one breaks, the lock bar is still held by the second in the position that enables blade locking.

If You read You linked topics, You'll see, that some of forumites noticed only, there is something wrong... A-hah: omega-spring is broken.

Posts You linked show that.

For me it's an example of a very good designed locking system. Strong, ambidextrous, easy to use, double safety.
 
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