Axis locks are a poor design

[the possum]

You don't need to believe, You can simply see that, if You haven't see it yet:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359579
I tried it also in the meantime, with same result.

It took like an hour to download that video over my dial up connection, and it ended up showing exactly what I thought it would. The can work if you completely remove one spring. But that's not what I was talking about. The problem comes when one spring breaks, and part of it is still attached to the lock bar, where it can impede movement.

If You read You linked topics, You'll see, that some of forumites noticed only, there is something wrong... A-hah: omega-spring is broken.

Posts You linked show that.

And if you had read further, you would see that my own personal expience was different from the norm. Look again at post #41 and my reply in post #46 in this thread.
Videos and anecdotes cannot disprove something that actually happened to me.

 

[logo]

It took like an hour to download that video over my dial up connection, and it ended up showing exactly what I thought it would. The can work if you completely remove one spring. But that's not what I was talking about. The problem comes when one spring breaks, and part of it is still attached to the lock bar, where it can impede movement.

Yes, You're right, it's possible. We misunderstood us.

I don't say "it will always lock properly", I say only that if You have a lock engaged and then the spring breaks, it doesn't have to mean a lock failure - that was on the film also, nothing more, but also a nothing less.

He didn't uses a knife with a broken spring, he don't opens and closes it: he shows only, that a locked knife without a spring stays still locked even if hit hard.

I wrote nothing about "sliding properly", or the "bar did always exert enough pressure on the tang to keep the blade closed" - if an omega spring breaks, the best thing to do is to change it, we're agree here I suppose. There is not a place for any "always" or "sliding" here.

And if you had read further, you would see that my own personal expience was different from the norm. Look again at post #41 and my reply in post #46 in this thread.
Videos and anecdotes cannot disprove something that actually happened to me.

I read it - but as mentioned above, we talk about two different things.

Using a knife with a broken spring is just a bad idea, it's not designed to work with only one spring - two springs are for addictional safety.

Again, if You work with knife an, let we say, a liner or frame lock disengages, You have very probably a blade on Your fingers.

If the omega spring breaks in the same situation - then very probably happens nothing. You still have all fingers to close a knife and send it to manufacturer for spring replacing.

Would You carry and use a knife with any damaged lock?

No?

So why are You complaining about a damaged axis lock knife that You can no more use safely?

Again: that's the point - You still have Your fingers.

BTW - even with a broken spring, if You must use a knife and have no other options, You can always use a wire, or nail or, I don't know, a match to insert it behind a locking pin and to lock a blade.

What do You want to do with a lock back with a broken or lost spring, worn out or bent liner lock (to talk only about most popular ones)?

Poor design? I don't think so.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So why are You complaining about a damaged axis lock knife that You can no more use safely?

Probably because lots of people have argued that it is still functional with one spring, he even responded to this specific assertion in one of the above linked threads.

-Cliff

 

[Artfully Martial]

Depends on how we define functional. Is the lock still functioning in that we didn't immediately get cut? Very probably. Is the lock still functioning on the level that we'd continue to use it as is? Certainly not.

The former is far more important, though it'd be great to see a lock with so much redundancy that you could ignore a broken part of a lock.

The only way to do that, as far as I can tell, is to use different kinds of locks on the same knife. A liner lock/axis lock combo for instance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Is the lock still functioning on the level that we'd continue to use it as is? Certainly not.

Lots of people have made that arguement :

" Look at it this way: It appears that an axis lock with 1 broken spring is still more reliable than competing locks. "

This is from a recent thread on the subject, people have promoted the use of the knife with one spring for a long time.

-Cliff

 

[logo]

Lots of people have made that arguement :

" Look at it this way: It appears that an axis lock with 1 broken spring is still more reliable than competing locks. "

This is from a recent thread on the subject, people have promoted the use of the knife with one spring for a long time.

-Cliff

Hello Cliff Stamp,

more reliable with one spring than other locks? Who argues that way?

I read again threads linked by the possum, found no one like this, only many statements, that it worked still, if it could engage - could You help me? Have You another threads not mentioned by him?

Or are You referring to my last post? If yes, that was not the point.

BTW - it can be still functional, but not when it doesn't engage, like on his knife.

However I would not use a knife I know it has only one spring for the long time. It's not very clever IMO and I wrote that already.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

more reliable with one spring than other locks? Who argues that way?

Several people have argued that one spring doesn't describe lock failure as the knife is still functional, as in it can be used, and have gone as far to say it is still more reliable than other locks :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1916757&postcount=41

-Cliff

 

[Sal Glesser]

As a designer with a few successful designs, IMO, the Axis lock is a beautiful design. There are a number of beautiful designs out there. Are they perfect? of course not, pobody's Nerfect.

The manufacturers continue to make them safer and more reliable all of the time. For responsible makers that create and refine new designs, There is always the drive to improve that creation, to make a better performing, safer knife.

Please keep in mind that nothing is perfect! Even the Earth has a wobble in it's rotation and the Sun blows up periodically.

sal

 

[wwells20]

As a designer with a few successful designs, IMO, the Axis lock is a beautiful design. There are a number of beautiful designs out there. Are they perfect? of course not, pobody's Nerfect.

The manufacturers continue to make them safer and more reliable all of the time. For responsible makers that create and refine new designs, There is always the drive to improve that creation, to make a better performing, safer knife.

Please keep in mind that nothing is perfect! Even the Earth has a wobble in it's rotation and the Sun blows up periodically.

sal

:thumbup: This is why I wait for your replies!

 

[thombrogan]

I've flicked my axis-locked blades open and shut tens of thousands of times and used them in a knife-like manner thousands of times without incident*. I see an axis-locked knife with a broken spring to be like a tire with trunk doughnut on one wheel. Don't try getting 50,000 miles on it, but it'll get you to the mechanic (or Angie-Land in the axis lock's case).

*= Cutting my leg open practicing Arnis doesn't count. The lock held fine and the 154CM cut so well that I only realized what a dunce I was instead of feeling pain.

 

[HoB]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359579

Well, I wouldn't really see this as proof. There is no question that the blade stays locked as long as the bar stays in place. The question is more, how much does it take to move the bar after one spring is broken.

I am not so sure the test wouldn't have ended differently if the knife had been tapped once on the butt.

This is nothing against Axis locks. Its just that every lock should be viewed with a critical eye and potential dangers should be identified. You will find some in any locking mechanism. Its just a matter of being aware.

 

[the possum]

Logo-
When I searched for all those threads I linked, I got about 200 more threads that mentioned axis springs breaking, but no one joining in actually had one of theirs break.

Almost invariably, the conversations would go something like this:

"Could my omega spring break?"
"Yeah, it's happened a few times, but don't worry about it. The lock will still work just fine with only one spring."

I'm not gonna spend another hour linking all those threads, but this arguement is practically "common knowledge" around here, and has been mentioned literally hundreds of times. I maintain that the conventional wisdom is wrong.

 

[3Guardsmen]

I bought a NIB 2004 (I know it is an early 2004 because there is no "USA" marking under the BM logo, and that was particular to early 2004 models) BM 722SBT on which both omega springs broke within three months of each other. The first one broke after a little less than a month. I sent it back, it got repaired, and about a month and a half later, the other side spring broke. This knife was not opened and closed repeatedly either. My guess is that BM got a bum lot of omega springs around that time.

I purchased a NIB BM 710S (an early model because it had an ATS34 blade, which would make it a 99-00 model) to keep me company while my 722 was being repaired. Within one month, a spring broke. I read through the BM forums to find that the early models of the 710's didn't have sufficient "scale room" for the omega springs. I let BM know that I had identified what I believed to be the problem. BM quickly replaced the scales and both springs. To this day, I have had no spring problems with that knife.

This just goes to show that omega springs do break, for varying reasons, but they can be reliable, too. BM also will quickly repair any problem you have with broken springs.

Best wishes,
3Guardsmen

 

[logo]

Hello HoB,

Well, I wouldn't really see this as proof. There is no question that the blade stays locked as long as the bar stays in place. The question is more, how much does it take to move the bar after one spring is broken.

Proof of what?

It should only show that it can stay locked with only one spring - there are some people who claims "it still works", some who say "I don't really believe it". Now they no more need to believe, it shows that.

As I already wrote, no more, no less.

If You're not sure how would it ended under other conditions - just try it. After seeing the film I tried the same with my three different axis locks, they held, and now I don't fancy to do that again.

Of course, all should be viewed with a critical eye, but "critical" doesn't mean "not seeing bright sides", does it?

"Bright side" is here, if an omega spring breaks but the lock is engaged, then very probably happens nothing. You can see it on that film, You can also read many user reports about it.

"Dark side" is, that it can change very quickly - and the best thing is sending a knife to Benchmade to repair.
Long time using a knife with only one spring is not a good idea, despite of some reports about such using - do we agree?

"Being aware" means for me here "realise that a spring is broken and send the knife to repair department / try to make a spring himself or let to do it by a clockmaker"


Hello the possum,

Logo-
When I searched for all those threads I linked, I got about 200 more threads that mentioned axis springs breaking, but no one joining in actually had one of theirs break.

Almost invariably, the conversations would go something like this:

"Could my omega spring break?"
"Yeah, it's happened a few times, but don't worry about it. The lock will still work just fine with only one spring."

I'm not gonna spend another hour linking all those threads, but this arguement is practically "common knowledge" around here, and has been mentioned literally hundreds of times. I maintain that the conventional wisdom is wrong.

OK, but all that started with Your statement "Axis locks are a poor design".

And they can't be soo poor IMO if You can find "hundreds" such reports.

Just kidding

Now I understand Your point, I have also read Your answer in the parallel Presidio thread. I believe there was already all needed written.

BTW - You see, we're on same side regarding intentional use of a damaged lock. Bad idea.

 

[Blop]

What is really killing me is: We discuss knives but in most cases they are not carried for more than one or a half year.

OK we always buy new ones and carry them, but how can we say: "this or that is reliable over a long period!" if we just edc knives a couple of weeks?

It is killing me because therefore i am bound to carry my 520(mod) forever just to get a real comparision how it works compared to my old Puma folder which i have edced over 8 years. I just get 3/4 year plus the few month before modification a have carried it, so around one year.

I have no probs with the springs. But what does it mean just after one year? Nothing.

EDC-ed AXIS after two years or more reviews (constant edc) are important.

I guess just Wade F is the man to know how axis works over a long periode.

Maybe next year i may tell you more.

 

[the possum]

OK, but all that started with Your statement "Axis locks are a poor design".

NO. I want to make this very clear- I never meant that the axis lock was a bad design. I meant that THE OMEGA SPRING is a bad design. NOT the concept behind the way the locking bar works, etc. I realize I should have worded this better origionally, but I have already clarified my statement twice now. The title of this thread is very misleading because of this misunderstanding.

I will continue to maintain that Benchmade should come up with a better spring design, and that the Axis lock is still a very wonderful design on the whole. I linked, what, about 20 posts where people had a spring break, and now others have chimed in on this very thread with more tales of breakage. I am convinced folks here are willing to dismiss the problem since they are fans of the axis lock. There was even one guy who told others not to worry about the springs breaking, and then his broke. And did he admit he was wrong? Of course not. After that he'd still say not to worry about it, because Benchmade will fix it, or something. He started out with a preconcieved notion, and ignored reality. I freely admit I also started out with a biased outlook, but the difference is, my opinion was reinforced by my experience. Hypothetical example- what would happen if 20 or 30 forumites had the handles fall off of their Sebenzas over the course of a couple years? Would the fans ever ask Chris to address this in the design stage, (i.e., admit there was a small problem with the design) or would they still say don't worry about it since he'll fix it?

BTW - You see, we're on same side regarding intentional use of a damaged lock. Bad idea.

Yes, I agree. I used mine for about a week with only one spring, because it was a very busy week at work, and I needed it constantly. Even though Benchmade fixed it, it was an inconvenience to send it off for such a simple repair.

 

[HoB]

It should only show that it can stay locked with only one spring

I respectfully disagree. This is not the point of the video. It gives the impression that it works with only one spring. Why would a spring break when the spring is static and the blade is in the locked position. This is simply not representative of real world conditions. The question is, does it reliably engage, when the spring brakes and you are not paying attention and don't notice immediately. Or when you bump the knife against something in a direction that forces the lockbar by inertia towards the release position. Whether it can work is of no interest to me. Will it work reliably, THAT is the question. After all you are betting you fingers. Personally, I would prefer something that breaks unmistakably and to the point where you can not use it anymore, than something that still kind of works but were you don't know how reliable it is. Heck, even a lockback without the spring remains engaged if the connection remains under tension.

 

[Blop]

Why would a spring break when the spring is static and the blade is in the locked position. This is simply not representative of real world conditions.

Yes, it should only break when the blade rotates.

The question is, does it reliably engage, when the spring brakes and you are not paying attention and don't notice immediately.

I haven´t seen the video, but what are ppl. telling who had a spring break? Didn´t most of them noticed it some time later?

Or when you bump the knife against something in a direction that forces the lockbar by inertia towards the release position.

That is a purely theoretic discussion! There are no reports that support that possibility.

I would prefer something that breaks unmistakably and to the point where you can not use it anymore, than something that still kind of works but were you don't know how reliable it is. Heck, even a lockback without the spring remains engaged if the connection remains under tension.

I guess, you can´t have both.

If it fails unmistakably where you can´t use it anymore, your fingers are in danger. The knife must colapse, if not, it is not unmistakably.

An axis with just one spring may not engage fully. A backlock with grease and dust inbetween may not engage fully. A liner lock may not engage fully of various reasons.

The only way to realize it is to pay attention while the blade rotates or leave the blade that loose, that it will fall down, if not locked open.

I guess it is natural behaviour to look after the tool before using it. Like looking for the right gear before start driving, or at the pencil before writing, just a second spend. After more than ten years of using locking folders i had never a situation where i didn´t realized when the lock didn´t engage right. It´s the sound and feel in your hands.

That is why ppl. like the loud twack! of locks. Compared to this an axis is so calm, you may not believe it is locked.

 

[WarRaven]

"Flawed" But i bought one anyways.

LMAO


I have read several posts about failure, and thousands of satisafactory threads and a couple recent ones here about poor designs.

In all of these cases i have read, the lock spring broke upon opening or closing, not on usage, can the others stand up to that.

The spring just holds the stop bar in place, an keeps blade closed, it does not affect lock strength, maybe reliabilty but not strength.

Oh, when my BM's open, they Thwack!

They may have had poor spring steel to begin with an poorly channeled scales at first, but these i believe have been adressed by BM enough that this is not a problem anymore.


Flawed design, Omg.
Whether it is a coil,leaf or torsion,they all suffer from fatigue an fail at some point. Does this make them Flawed, no i dont think so.

Even ol' Cliffy has stated recently that a blade that snapped in half,is not equal to a bad product, but a bad run of steel,so again i wonder, how do YOU come up with it's a poorly designed spring.


And is this case, the Omega's do not hold any weight on them, just spring pressure itself, so a bad one here an there does NOT mean a bad design at all, bad steel ok, but to State it is a poor design, is an absolutely clueless statement.


I usually would not say such a thing, but someone has given themselves enough rope to make this thread pertaining to this feasible.


So, they have told thousands of people about how bad the design of the spring is, did they mention the companys willingness to help fix thier knife an get them cutting again without alot of grief,not that i have seen, or even matter now does it?

I would also add, that from a companies point of view, it would be best to move on to a new design if your present one was causing problems to your end customers an losing credibilty amongst them, and i would hazzard, they would know that best, atleast better then some guy that owns one or two and is making a ruckus over it here.

I should not have opened this thread as some will say, as i see this as troll'ish type of behavoir.






WR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I would also add, that from a companies point of view, it would be best to move on to a new design if your present one was causing problems to your end customers an losing credibilty amongst them ...

This isn't a strong arguement for the quality of the lock, simply consider liner locks for example on tactical folders in regards to impacts/torques.

In regard to defect rate, the percentage of users needs to be considered. For example if there is a 5% reported problem, but only 10% are actually significantly used on a regular basis, the actual defect rate is likely 50%.

-Cliff