Backpacking equipment--deodorant over knife?

[tradja]

Thanks. The reason I keep doing them isn't because I especially enjoy professional suicide, but because it's an amazing experience every time. People on a forum like this get it, but most sheeple do not.

How many people would you guess have actually done all three in say, the last 10 years?

According the organization that tracks these things, about 88 people in the past 10 years. Almost all hikers who do all 3 trails will register with ALDHA-West, though I know one who has not.

Many of the people on that page are my friends. I'm trying to recall what everyone carries. Mostly Vic Classics, many Micras, a few Gerber LSTs, and some mid-size SAKs among the graybeards. For all I know, I'm sure there must be some other real knives among them. Now that I think of it, there are some pretty good stories of emergency fires among this crew.

 

[tradja]

tradja thanks for giving us some first hand experience, its good to hear from somebody who has been out there and done them. Also you bring up some great points from a sort of ambassador between these two groups of people.

Everyone is out in the mountains to enjoy it. Some thru-hikers get bent out of shape about horses crapping on the trail, hunters, and mountain bikers. Frankly, it's mostly political/ideological/cultural (except finding horse manure in the only water source for 35 miles. That actually sucks.) Me, I'm glad to see people out enjoying our public lands.

And I am with you, you may be able to get by with a SAK classic but come on its so much more fun to carry a nice knife.

:thumbup: Exactly!

I'll be starting a thread about this year's PCT hike before long. I'm hoping to be able to update it every month or so this summer (I know, not very Nessmuky ) and do a big photo post at the end. I'll have a few days with internet access at a friend's house in Tahoe in mid-July.

This thread has given me a good idea of what stuff will be of interest. Not much foraging and setting figure-4's, but I do want to build more fires this year. My method is pretty "dirtbag" ultralight and do it a wee bit different than the crowd. Mrs. Tradja and I do not spend nearly as much time in resupply towns as other hikers.

ETA: Whoa, just read this thread in more detail. Didn't realize it had gotten so heated on pages 3-4. I didn't mean to step on any toes, but reiterate that there are all kinds of styles of outdoor recreation. Everyone is responsible for being prepared, but sometimes you can do it without much.

 

[Iboschi]

I disagree a bit Tradja. Not entirely, but somewhat. As I see it, this professor is probably an urbanite at heart. Urbanites fear knives and "weapons". They aren't considered tools or used for anything but harm right? So taking one on a hike would be cumbersome, imply an insecurity to other urbanites, and in all honesty be a foreign tool and very unfamiliar.

I keep jumper cables in my car (and I know how to use them ). I would wager most people on this forum do too. News flash: Most people don't have jumper cables, mylar sheets, ponchos or other important emergency gear in their cars. They just call for help when they get stuck. This guy might hike the AT mostly (agreeably well populated and hard to run into a difficult situation, but unlikely isn't the same as impossible), but his list shouldn't really be specific to the AT in ALL regards. Coaching people to bring luxuries over tools is totally bonkers.

A folder and a firesteel could save your ass if you were on a deserted highway, much less any trail you took a wrong turn on. Lets say you're on the AT and someone gets hurt, goes into shock and you're through hiking without a mylar blanket and your down bag is wet. Time to make a fire but your lighter is wet and your matches are lost. Firesteel and knife time right? I would rather carry any knife however small (even if I was a serious weight nut, and I'm not) and light, than NOT. The funny thing is, someone could do pretty much everything they need with a good knife and ONLY that on the AT or any other trail. A good knife is, and should always be considered basic equipment, especially on the trail, however populated it might be.

 

[tradja]

I disagree a bit Tradja. Not entirely, but somewhat. As I see it, this professor is probably an urbanite at heart. Urbanites fear knives and "weapons". They aren't considered tools or used for anything but harm right? So taking one on a hike would be cumbersome, imply an insecurity to other urbanites, and in all honesty be a foreign tool and very unfamiliar.

From what I've observed of thru-hiker and "hobbyist ultralight" culture, your observation is right on the money.

ETA: However, thru-hikers and hobbyist ultralighters are the same demographic as REI'ers, and REI sells a relatively great selection of serviceable knives. Heck, I puchased a BM960 with M4 steel there. Other urbanites relish the chance to go camping so there is a credible excuse to buy and carry a folder or nice multi. (Aren't European and Japanese knife laws predicated on this idea?) I conclude that knives are "yuppie camping approved". With ultralighters, I think there are other factors at work. His idea that he'll "just borrow one" has rightfully garnered negative attention here, but it underscores the experience that a knife is just not a daily use item for ultralighters. He states that he stopped carrying his little knife because he just wasn't using it. If he was using it all the time, I doubt he'd stop carrying it for political reasons.

Coaching people to bring luxuries over tools is totally bonkers.

:thumbup: Again, I agree.

A folder and a firesteel could save your ass if you were on a deserted highway, much less any trail you took a wrong turn on. Lets say you're on the AT and someone gets hurt, goes into shock and you're through hiking without a mylar blanket and your down bag is wet. Time to make a fire but your lighter is wet and your matches are lost. Firesteel and knife time right?

I hear you and see your point. However, multi-year thru hikers have encountered these situations (when you get into the thousands of nights, the probability approaches 1) and prevailed.

During my PCT thru-hike in 1999, a hiker that I had not met, a doctor from San Diego, slid down an icy chute in the Sierra and died. He did not have an ice axe, and equally as important I assume that he did not know how to use one. I had been arguing for ice axes in the Sierra for the first 700 miles through the desert, and even after he fell, some thru-hikers still refused to carry an ice axe in the Sierra. Ray Jardine, the above-mentioned (and now mostly forgotten) guru of ultralight thru-hiking, adamantly advised to carry an ice axe.

PCT thru-hikers continue to traverse the Sierra in early season without an axe. Today's most popular PCT planning guide takes a neutral stance on the "issue" and presents both sides of the debate, but implies support for the "all you need is trekking poles" camp. I see this as negligent. Both years on the PCT, I taught basic self-arrest skills to several hikers when we hit our first snow patch. I'll do the same this year.

Lack of an ice axe (and the requisite skills) has killed a thru-hiker. Another gentleman more recently stumbled and fell down a bank to his demise. I really don't know if lack of a knife and firesteel has killed any thru-hikers or triggered any SARs. I'm not saying that to be a wiseass, I really don't know.

The AT is a circus. I imagine that lack of skill and adequate clothing has probably caused some serious incidents there. This summer on the PCT, I will carefully observe emergencies that I and other hikers encounter and post AARs, focusing on presence/absence of skills and gear in those situations. I bet skills come up short more often than gear.


ETA:

I keep jumper cables in my car (and I know how to use them ). I would wager most people on this forum do too. News flash: Most people don't have jumper cables, mylar sheets, ponchos or other important emergency gear in their cars.

Yeah, I've seen this, in Tahoe and elsewhere. WTF is wrong with people that don't carry at least some gear in their cars anyway?

 

[Ramm9]

We're planning to do the PCT again this year. I'm trying to select a knife for the hike right now which is lots of fun. I'm shooting for a 9lb pack this time.

Maybe the two of you can take up Polar kayaking in your old age to round things out!

Aside from another zillion questions the first few are, if it's ok to ask, what trail names do you go by and do you guys keep a running journal? When will you start and will you travel So. to N? Aprox. when would you expect to hit Tuolumne Meadows and how much food and water weight will you add to the (I assume) 9lb base weight?

 

[Iboschi]

Lack of an ice axe (and the requisite skills) has killed a thru-hiker. Another gentleman more recently stumbled and fell down a bank to his demise. I really don't know if lack of a knife and firesteel has killed any thru-hikers or triggered any SARs. I'm not saying that to be a wiseass, I really don't know.

Ok. You nearly made me pee my pants with that Ultimately, I think we agree or at least we're almost like minded. The term for "lack of a knife and firesteel" has many names: Exposure. Hypothermia. Shock. Etc. and those are serious issues that could be resolved by a proper shelter and or fire, made easier with TOOLS (not nessesarily a knife and firesteel, but they're the most RELIABLE as far as I can see) and it is always good to have back up resources if your matches and bag are wet, or a rogue limb rips your tent apart. If you think a rogue limb shouldn't even be close to someones tent, then deodorant shouldn't trump knives either

 

[zhangmaster12]

Quick question:

What do yo u guys eat on the 2000 mile hikes? Where do you get fuel for stoves?
Are there rest stop for water/fuel/food?

 

[nemoaz]

ETA: Yeah, I've seen this, in Tahoe and elsewhere. WTF is wrong with people that don't carry at least some gear in their cars anyway?

I think it's probably becoming the accepted norm not to carry jumper cables or even a spare tire. They think because they didn't need it last time or any time in the recent past that they don't NEED it in the future. Besides, they can just call AAA or have someone else that carries jumper cables help them.

It's just the mindset we've seen described by the superultralighters.

Darwinism at work as far as I'm concerned.

 

[tradja]

Maybe the two of you can take up Polar kayaking in your old age to round things out!

Ray and Jenny randomly picked me up hitchhiking one time. I had heard lots of negative stories about them, but they were really cool and humble.

Aside from another zillion questions the first few are, if it's ok to ask, what trail names do you go by and do you guys keep a running journal? When will you start and will you travel So. to N? Aprox. when would you expect to hit Tuolumne Meadows and how much food and water weight will you add to the (I assume) 9lb base weight?

Oddly enough, I'm Tradja. My wife doesn't have a trail name yet (CDT was her first thru). She doesn't really seem to want one. "Bad Monkey" didn't stick.

We might keep a journal like on trailjournals.com. Most thru-hikers do. It's a bit more of an IT experience than I want my hike to be. I enjoy keeping a paper journal, but typing it up and posting it in the fall is teh Lame. I'm stoked about the idea of as-possible updates to a thread here.

This year we'll start from the ADZPCTKO and hike northbound, from Mexico to Canada.

I reckon we'll probably get to Tuolumne around the 4th of July, but that depends mostly on snowpack levels. Tahoe about a week later. You around? Join us for a few miles through Echo Lake/Desolation Wilderness! (the segment north of I80/Donner Summit is lame. Barker Pass to Donner Summit or Pass is awesome, though).

Food and water really add up, especially when it's 30+ miles between water sources and two people are trying to eat 4000+ cals/day. At one point on the JMT, my base weight was around 11lbs but my pack was almost 60lbs, and I had several similar carries on remote dry parts of the CDT. I carry most of the food and water to keep her pack lighter. Mrs. Tradja carries both sleeping bags since they are really just volume, not weight.

Ok. You nearly made me pee my pants with that Ultimately, I think we agree or at least we're almost like minded. The term for "lack of a knife and firesteel" has many names: Exposure. Hypothermia. Shock. Etc. and those are serious issues that could be resolved by a proper shelter and or fire, made easier with TOOLS (not nessesarily a knife and firesteel, but they're the most RELIABLE as far as I can see) and it is always good to have back up resources if your matches and bag are wet, or a rogue limb rips your tent apart.

:thumbup: <emphasis added> Yes, I think we're mostly saying the same thing: like anywhere, things happen out there and you gotta be ready to deal. I'm just saying that skills trump gear, and in very complicated ways, one can occasionally sub for the other. Unfortunately, I have observed many thru-hikers and ultralighters who had little of either.

Those alternate names are exactly why we took a 2-day Wilderness First Aid course before the CDT. And yes, the branch-thru-tarp thing is real, especially with lightweight fabric. When this has happened to me, the best tool I had was a sewing needle.

One night during my 1999 thru-hike, a few of us got someone to drive our overnight gear ahead one day so we could enjoy the novelty of "slackpacking" with just day gear (go ahead and insist that one day of this makes us "trail runners" or not real outdoorspeople. ) Of course, that day we got talking, not paying attention to the map and got lost in a maze of fresh clearcuts that had obliterated streams, springs, and other landmarks.

Spending an unplanned night outside was one of the most valuable experiences I've ever had, indoors or out. I had the SAK Classic and a MagLite Solitaire, but didn't use either that night.
What I didn't wish for that night: a Busse. Fishing line. Kydex. My 1911.
What I did wish for: food. my sleeping bag.
What my companions envied me for: my scrap of USGI sleeping pad. My long pants. My thick fleece hat. My lighter. Fire was far and away the best thing we had.

Should I have had at least 2 backups for that lighter? Yes. I do now.
Should I have had a space blanket/bag? Yes. I do now.

 

[tradja]

Quick question:

What do yo u guys eat on the 2000 mile hikes? Where do you get fuel for stoves?
Are there rest stop for water/fuel/food?

BTW, the NJ section of the AT is actually awesome. Lots of black bears, without the behavior problems like in the Smokies or Yosemite. I bet you've been out there a bunch, but if not, go.

I eat a lot of pasta, olive oil, parm, Lipton Noodles, flavored rice mixes, couscous, foil pack tuna, nuts, dried fruit, ramen, PB, cookies, crackers, various granola/snack bars, Fig Newtons, pretzels, and cheese. The best of the crap I can select at the tiny convenience stores and camp stores I resupply at. Few if any thru-hikers eat foil-pouch freeze-dried meals, except as a novelty once every few months. Those are for weekenders and yuppies.

The alcohol stoves burn mostly automotive HEET picked up at the tiny shops. When I run out, I just cook on a twig fire where legal. Many hikers carry Esbit tablets as a backup fuel source. People think of Esbits as coffee warmers but I've actually cooked pretty large and elaborate meals on Esbits.

Rest stops? Kinda. Each of the 3 trails mentioned here are different. The AT is almost like hiking in Europe: small towns on- or near-trail every few miles. Not very "wildernessy", at least from my Western eye.

The PCT encounters a few fishing resorts, park HQs, and small towns, but mostly involves hitches into town from road crossings. The longest "carry" between resupplies is around 210 miles/10 days, but most legs are around 100 miles/4 days.

The CDT is like the PCT, but even less. Pretty cool experience, actually. There is some big wilderness there. :thumbup:

To be clear, nobody is "living off the land". Unlike our forum, that is not the goal. I handlined a trout once, and eat berries, ramps, morels, and wild onions when I find them. Haven't found edible pine nuts yet, but I keep looking. I might fish this year but the non-resident license in CA is spendo. If I do fish, I guarantee that I will be the only one out of ~250. I have heard of some hikers occasionally eating diamondback on the southern PCT, but this is generally frowned upon as unnecessary by the mostly-crunchy community. I'd probably do it. Heck, if somebody near me gets a snake, they'll probably look for me since I'll be the only guy with a big knife.

These hikes are not necessarily an ultralight thing, but are usually begun with the goal of finishing and a light pack increases the chances of doing that. Finishing means doing miles every day, from 10-20/day on the AT to 25-30+ on the Western trails. It can sound like some kind of rushed, superficial experience to non-thru hikers, but tell me that after you've done one.

 

[JRB]

With the kind of miles long distance thru hikers need to travel every day I can't imagine getting enough calories by living off the land. IMO, the amount of time and energy it takes to hunt and forage alone would make thru hiking an impossibility.

 

[AugustChief]

Concur,

Thanks for the great articles. I'm plan on hiking the entire AT to mark my retirement.

 

[Guyon]

Knife&#8212;seldom. I used to carry a ½ ounce tiny key-chain knife. There are so few things needing cutting on the trail I no longer take it. If I need a knife I wait until the next town or borrow one from someone I run into.

Dummy alert. Danger, Will Robinson!!!