BAD deal with scfishr

[meaningless opinion]
Really none of my business, but I saw the knife on Ebay... Geez, that is a beautiful knife! I would, personally, LOVE to have a BM E and that sounds like a good price. However, $300-$400 is too much money for this father of two. Is that the point here? $400 is a lot of money... You have it home and, for this ~1lb. of steel, you just spent $400??

I am relatively new to this forum as a poster but I've been a lurker for awhile. Bought a few Becker's... I really want a Battle Rat. :D But I have to temper my penchant for purchasing with the realization that I need to moderate my spending since I am fiscally responsible for others and cannot be a slave to my own simple desires.

I'm hearing other reputable posters say that "a trade isn't complete until both sides are happy." You know, that sounds great... honorable, even. I sent back a cheap Bear MGC to SMKW just b/c it *really* was NOT what I was expecting. However, if it had been an individual I bought a knife from and I didn't like it, the honorable thing for me, personally, would be to chalk it up as a learning experience and resale it on Ebay or trade it on this forum.

I offered to take back a vintage microphone from an Ebay sale I made b/c I had one letter of the model wrong in the description. The model # was clear in the photos but was misquoted in the description. (The purchaser wanted to keep it, anyway. All good.) And in the instance of actually trading one knife for another... a lot of ambiguity there; I can see where there are a lot of gray area's there and one party might want to back out.

As a seller and purchaser, I always expect to nullify the deal if there is serious misrepresentation.

But, as an outsider listening only to, mostly, what the accuser is saying: It sounds like the knife is just as described. If anything, nicer. (In terms of not using it b/c it is "too nice"... we're not talking about a dog from a Adopt-A-Pet. It's a knife. Were you so concerned about the long-term welfare of the knife that you were asking how potential purchasers were going to "care for it" when they won the auction on Ebay??)

A fair amount. A very nice knife. Sell it if ya don't want it IMHO. As a buyer, I won't make an individual seller suffer if I have a case of buyer's remorse. I sincerely hope this opinion won't make long-time, reputable posters hesitant to "trade" with me in the future, but I'm just being honest.
[/meaningless opinion]
 
maestrodawg1 said:
I'm putting this whole bloody quote up so you can't edit it. You seem to have missed all three points that I raised.

#1-scfishr offered to reverse the deal. Check out your line 7.-ie offer to reverse the deal.

#2-You paid $375 for a user and got a safe queen. You complain? :barf:

#3-By your own posting scfishr wasn't ignoring you.

At what point is there a problem with scfishr's honor? I am sitting here scratching my head trying to figure out what the issue is.
Click to expand...

Check line 10 where he says he'll have to pass on me returning the knife, going back on his word.

I'd be more than glad to sell this stupid thing right now for $300 and end all this drama. Screw the few bucks, I don't care, it's not worth the headache. I've got homework to do and more important things to worry about than this.There is a god damn war going on overseas I'm getting ready to particapte in and THIS soap opera is being played out and I let myself get sucked right in.

My only point, that was in my first post, was to be careful with this guy. I didn't say not to deal with him at all, just to be careful.
 
From my original for sale post:

"I do not have picture capability at this time, all knives are guaranteed to be as represented and can be returned within 24 hrs of receipt"




Was the knife misrepresented in any way?

7 On Apr 23, 2005, at 1:11 PM, droc217@comcast.net wrote: I was wondering if you'd take the BM E back, I'll pay you back for what it cost you to ship it here, plus the othe 1.5% of thePayPalfees you covered. It is a lot nicer than I expected and it is not really what I was looking for. I was looking for more of a user BM and this one is so nice I don't even want to use it. If not, that's cool, I'll just try to sell it for what I paid back on the knife forums orsomething. Thanks, Dan


I also sold a benchmade knife to another member that was mising the belt loop from the sheath, i did not represent this in my description, upon asking about it

I told him that I would without fail, refund his money, I suspect that he was satisfied with the price paid, as he responded that it was no a problem, not to worry about it,

This was a misrepresentation on my part(not on purpose, but an oversight as it was as I had recieved it) and made him the same offer that I made you.
 
Did droc make contact within 24 hours of receipt of the knife?
From the wise brain of Spark:
5. IF YOU WANT AN INSPECTION PERIOD OR RIGHT TO RETURN A PRODUCT, AGREE TO IT IN ADVANCE. CYA CYA CYA CYA CYA - it will save hard feelings all around.
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All sellers and buyers on this sight should ask for and receive a 3 day inspection. A knife should be able to be returned to the seller for any reason whatsoever for a full refund less shipping/bank fees as long as contact was made to the seller within 3 days of receipt.

I know that this is an honor based system, but it works well and has worked well since the inception of this forum and is the industry standard (Gun List, Guns America, etc) If you want zero returns, use ebay.

I guess I am in the minority, but it is my opinion that a deal is never concluded on Bladeforums until both parties are happy-with no questions asked.
 
droc217 said:
Check line 10 where he says he'll have to pass on me returning the knife, going back on his word.
Click to expand...

Droc,

Yeah and you already told him it was cool if he didn't want to reverse the deal in line 7 and then he didn't and then he re-up'd the offer here. So again what is the problem besides you?

This really is an excellant post. Just my humble opnion Droc but I hope your homework is in critical thinking or logic. Because yours really doesn't make sense here. You sound like a buyer from hell.

PS-What the hell does Iraq and Afganistan have to do with this issue?

I'm out.
 
I guess I am in the minority, but it is my opinion that a deal is never concluded on Bladeforums until both parties are happy-with no questions asked.





Or until the buyer has listed the knife for sale elsewhere, and now says he will sell for atleast $35 less than a bid that was made 10 days earlier :confused:

I sincerely hope that someone will buy this knife at the offered $300,

He says he will be happy and someone will be getting a great deal

I agree completely with both parties being happy
 
[You know, I feel like I should really keep my mouth shut here, but here goes... ]

Anthony: Again, I am a newbie. That means that I have only absorbed the information I've gotten from reading a few hundred pages of posts to this forum and I really appreciate it's existence. However, I think I only just tonight figured out how the "rep points" work as I sent approval points to SCFisher. Of course, everyone is familiar with Ebay feedback. Do you think there would be some way to make a similiar system for buyers and their behavior? Not to leave negative feedback but as a way to determine how often they inspect and return a purchased knife?

Based off of your posts I feel like you are probably a pretty honorable person. I wouldn't hesitate to blindly send you funds for a knife unseen. I am certain you would go out of your way to followup and be certain I was happy. :D But do buyers exist within BladeForum who abuse this trust? Buyers who have a habit of purchasing a knife, waiting for arrival of this perfectly described knife, then experiencing a case of buyers remorse and shipping it back? I guess it wouldn't be a big deal if I had a $20 - $30 knife and I refunded. A bit of a pain, sure, but not a big deal.

But in this case, the seller isn't selling the BM as a way to dally in his knife hobby. He is taking, what I suspect is a prize of his collection (it sure would be mine!!), and selling b/c he needs the money badly. Then, let's say in hypothetical, he sells the knife to me. I always wanted one. I get it. Beautiful! But wait, you know. "Should I really have spent this much money?? Wow. This is really cool though!! Oh, well. I'll just ask for my money back." Now the seller, who may be in dire straits to begin with, must contend with 3 days of inspection, a few days of shipping b4 he presumably get the knife back in the same condition, before he can sell it to the next person and, hopefully, end up with some truly liquid funds to apply to whatever financial crisis he may be in... I'm sorry, that just doesn't sound fair to the seller to me.

Misrepresentation does not apply in this comment... that's not what we're (or at least I) am talking about. I'm speaking of "buyer's remorse."

If this is true, and I am the seller in the example, it would be nice to have a gauge of whom is likely to just be fickle and return the knife if I really need the money. Otherwise, it would seem to be better to reserve all of your casual selling/trading for BladeForums and, if you seriously need the cash flow, reserve the sell for Ebay. (Again, assuming no misrepresentation...)

I'm not perfect and certainly have made MORE than my share of mistakes. But one of the things most impressed upon me by my Dad, was to take responsibility for my decisions. Even the bad ones.

If I really needed the money, it would go to the buyer who said "I definitely want that d*^n knife!" Not to the one who said, "Ship it to me to handle and, if I still like it after 3 days, you can keep the money." Not in the trivial trades. But if I was in a financial crisis and selling, yeah, I want a buyer who knows what they want.

Man, I hope this comes out right...
 
maestrodawg1 said:
Droc,

Yeah and you already told him it was cool if he didn't want to reverse the deal in line 7 and then he didn't and then he re-up'd the offer here. So again what is the problem besides you?

This really is an excellant post. Just my humble opnion Droc but I hope your homework is in critical thinking or logic. Because yours really doesn't make sense here. You sound like a buyer from hell.

PS-What the hell does Iraq and Afganistan have to do with this issue?

I'm out.
Click to expand...

I referenced the war to show how trivial this all is. Read the post a little more carefully.

If you have a valuable contribution to make to this thread, I welcome it.

Please leave your subjective responses and insults at the door.
 
First is an objective observation based on your statements. Second is, as I said, a subjective opinion based on objective observation. Unjustly assaulting scfishr's honor, especially in public, is an insult. So live by your own words please.

I don't know either of you and I feel for you that from your perspective the deal went bad. But your thought process seems out of perspective with normal logic. I didn't/don't mean it as an insult, I see why you took it that way, and I apologize. I could have pharsed it better. So I'll try this:

To me this thread is very enlightening. It would give me pause to do business, either as a buyer or seller, with Droc217 based on his complaints and responses here.

PS- A knife deal gone bad is not trival, even to you. Or you wouldn't be so worked up about it. But I understand what you mean.

PSS-I will continue to make subjective statements/judgements based on observations and facts until a mod tells me I should stop. After all you're asking members here to make a negative subjective decision towards scfishr based on your given facts.
 
"On Apr 23, 2005, at 1:11 PM, droc217@comcast.net wrote: I was wondering if you'd take the BM E back, I'll pay you back for what it cost you to ship it here, plus the othe 1.5% of thePayPalfees you covered. It is a lot nicer than I expected and it is not really what I was looking for. I was looking for more of a user BM and this one is so nice I don't even want to use it. If not, that's cool, I'll just try to sell it for what I paid back on the knife forums or something. Thanks, Dan"

Okay,I can solve this problem.You wanted a user BM for what you paid,and got a safe queen instead? Contact me for my mailing info,ship the knife to me.Out of the kindness of my heart,I will beat the living S*** out of your knife for you and turn her into a beautiful "user" knife.I will do this custom quality work to your knife at absolutely no cost to you but shipping both ways.It is the least I can do for a fellow knifenut.Look forward to hearing from you,tootaloo! :)
 
I'm not going to get into this thread, but have found it to be the most interesting I have ever read on GB&U.
It just so happens I know Scfishr from one purchase I made of a Busse, and the many emails since. He has even called me with answers to my email questions. Offered to fix my knife problems. Little did I know after our first transaction he would end up being IMHO one of the most honorable, friendly people I have ever met on BF.
Sorry to hear for the first time of his family problems, as many conversations we had were about the pleasure he has spending time with his boys. Hope happier days are not too far off, and this BF bump in the road isn't even in the memory bank anymore after a while.
Soooo. As far as I concerned about Scfishr, If they make them any better, I haven't met one yet.
 
droc127 ~

You are quickly turning yourself into a Bladeforums pariah as far as knife transactions are concerned, in my opinion. I don't think anyone here is seriously questioning your integrity and honor, but I do think you are creating the perception of "difficult to deal with". Personally, I understand the phrase, "Deal's not done till everyone's happy" to mean that it is my responsibility to ensure that what I am purchasing is what I want. If the knife comes to me in the advertised condition (advertised on Bladeforums or via e-mail), then that's where the contractual definition of happiness ends. If I find out the knife isn't quite what I wanted, or I experience buyer's remorse, that's my problem -- not the seller's problem.

I would urge you to take the following course of action:

1) Apologize to scfishr in this thread for calling his reputation into question.

2) Pony up $30 for a gold membership, and sell the knife here. If you wait until after Blade show (early June), you'll probably be able to get most of your money back. Right now is the traditional time for Busse-dumping as most are trying to raise money for Blade.

3) If paying for a membership is not within your means at the moment, then put the knife up for trade to get the knife you really want.

I hope you'll really consider what you're doing here, and think about whether your actions are really worth the results. Bladeforums is a relatively tight community, and we tend not to use the GB&U (Good, Bad, and Ugly) forum unless things have really turned bad and or ugly. As it is, the only bad I've seen so far is your initial complaint. You still have the chance to turn this around and become an accepted part of the community. I think you'll find that to be far more rewarding.

Sincerely,

Matthew
 
Starfish:

Wow, you condensed what I was trying to say in two pages to one paragraph... niiiiice! :cool: I gotta get me a machine that does that for me. Sort of a Content/Spell Check.
 
scfishr said:
I guess I am in the minority, but it is my opinion that a deal is never concluded on Bladeforums until both parties are happy-with no questions asked.
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You are in the majority on that. It has been standard practice since we began selling/ trading on this forum.

It is not a hard, written rule, but an implied rule, and most people do honor it.
 
CODE 3 -- If that is standard practice, than why do the folks above keep saying that a buyer does NOT have the right to call/e-mail seller after a knife is received and return it for any reason.

Seems to me that's the risk of selling/buying over the web -- that somone may say this is not what I wanted/expected or thought I was getting and send it back (within a respectable period of time). Am I wrong?

BTW...I am only commenting on what is standard practice. Not who is right or wrong in this specific instance. Seems like we have two different conversations going on here.

JT
 
JT, a deal is what the parties involved say the deal is. If they don't specify some point in advance, it just isn't binding.

But this is primarily a community of hobbyists. We're in it for the fun. So going the extra step to make sure the other guy is as happy with his end of it as you want to be with yours is something we've come to expect. Until both say they like what they got, buy or trade, most of us do feel the deal is reversible.

I think what this argument is about is at what point that satisfaction is final. Once both sides say they like what they got, how can one come back and say it isn't working out?

I've done deals where I got my knife first and waited to hear from the other guy before I put so much as a fingerprint on the blade. Once he got the money or the knife I traded him and said he was happy with it, then I could go out and cut something.

But once I did? That's pretty much it, any change of heart after that isn't reversing the original deal, in my mind, it's a whole new deal, and needs a whole new agreement.

In this case, scfishr did wait till he heard droc127 was happy, then he rushed out to spend the money he needed badly -- or he never would have parted with the knife in the first place. So the original, pre-deal conditions no longer existed after that.

If droc127 wanted his money back later, he had to work with scfishr from the hobbyist point of view, not assuming a right to come back to him forever. And for sure not being heavy-handed with someone who had enough on his mind already.

Written communications are difficult enough. We have to leave a lot of room for clearing up misunderstanding, not building on it.
 
This is one everyone is going to have to decide for themselves. Is scfishr making a reasonable effort to satisfy droc217? Has he been making a reasonable effort from the beginning? Who's being unreasonable here? You've seen what both parties have to say, now you can decide for yourself whether you want to trade with either of them in the future.
 
Not that it pertains to the transaction in question specifically, but what are the other "unwritten rules"? Seems to me you can't expect a seller to be bound to "The first 'I'll take it' gets it" and still expect them to adhere to the implied inspection period. What if a seller prefers to sell to someone who agrees to accept the item "as is" when the buyer who expects a 3-day inpection happens to say "I'll take it" first? Do you take it for granted every shipment is insured? Do you specify the carrier for shipment? Do you expect the item will be shipped the same or following business day when payment is received?

As a buyer, I don't expect to be able to return an item unless it not as described. It is best to agree to every detail of the transaction and assume nothing, particularly when you have not dealt with the person before.
 
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