Barmaley's Aggregated Questions Thread

Hello,

I am shopping for a good ceramic rod for honing instead of steel and I want a good one which will last. I found Green Elephant:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019MQCDZW/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza
which claims: "DURABILITY with the highest quality ceramic available on the market – hardness of this ceramic sharpening steel is 9 Mohs (SGS tested). Rockwell hardness over 100 (Yes, that's correct)"
Alternative is Boker 09SR001 Sieger Long Life Knife Sharpener which claims:
"Hardened to roughly 200RC the synthetic ruby Seiger Long Life 20 will help keep your cutting edges their keenest."

I am not planning to use knives harder than 62. Green Elephant is half the price. Will i get substantial advantages of using harder honing steel or everything what is harder than my knives will work the same?
 
Literally any ceramic (aluminum oxide) honing rod will be roughly 3X as hard as any blade steel you'll ever use, excluding the hardness of it's chromium or vanadium carbides. So, at the very least, you'll still be able to remove the matrix steel to hone the edge. If the rod is to be used with kitchen cutlery, even the bulk of those knives will not have much vanadium carbide content, but may be fairly high in chromium carbide (think of kitchen cutlery in VG-10, for example).

The only significant limitation with aluminum oxide rods is, they'll be ~25% less hard than the vanadium carbides in some steels containing a lot of that. But again, with kitchen cutlery, that's usually not going to be an issue anyway, as most don't contain enough vanadium carbide to matter much. On the other hand, the chromium carbides in better kitchen cutlery steels will still be less hard than the aluminum oxide, so ceramic rods will handle those easily.

I don't put a lot of faith in the 100-200+ 'RC' values quoted, as the Rockwell C scale (HRC) is only meaningful up into the high 60s, after which the equipment used to measure Rockwell C hardness isn't able to accurately measure it. The only implication of such quoted values is, it just means the rod's abrasive is plenty hard enough to handle the large majority of knife steels. Those numbers are meant just to get the buyers' attention, but are essentially meaningless otherwise.

If shopping for a good ceramic honing rod, I'd just focus on brands with a good reputation, especially among brands used by professionals. But with ceramics, sometimes even the inexpensive ones can work just fine in their own right. There's also a lot of variation in surface finish of ceramics, which is really the main factor in determining how coarse or fine they'll leave a working edge on a kitchen knife.
 
David,

As always your answers are very thoughtful and informative! Thank you. Do you have a recommendation on the least expensive quality rod for VG10 kitchen knives? My goal is to hone each knife few times on a rod before every cooking session, so I expect to micro-sharpen the knives thus I would never need to formally sharpen knives. I am planning to buy Shun chef and santoku classic knives and they should have sharp edge from the factory. Can I expect never need sharpening provided I will not chip the edge and will hone them on a proper ceramic rod?
 
Barmaley said:
David,

As always your answers are very thoughtful and informative! Thank you. Do you have a recommendation on the least expensive quality rod for VG10 kitchen knives? My goal is to hone each knife few times on a rod before every cooking session, so I expect to micro-sharpen the knives thus I would never need to formally sharpen knives. I am planning to buy Shun chef and santoku classic knives and they should have sharp edge from the factory. Can I expect never need sharpening provided I will not chip the edge and will hone them on a proper ceramic rod?
Click to expand...

Might watch for others' input here as well. But a couple of brands I see favorable comments about are F. Dick (expensive, but very good reputation) and Idahone (less expensive than F. Dick, but not quite cheap). As I mentioned before, the surface finish of the rod affects results. I know Idahone offers a couple options in 'coarse' (600-800 equivalent) and 'fine' (2000 equivalent) versions. And F. Dick has one dual-grit option in a diamond / ceramic combination rod.
 
Wow, F. Dick is $130. Don't you think it would be better to get for the same purpose Spyderco Sharpmaker for half the price?

With the goal of keeping knives sharp is a scenario that I am planning to use about 5 strokes on each side of a knife per hour of kitchen cutting I am looking for about 1000 grit equivalent rod or 3000 grit?

Is it realistic to keep knives always sharp by constantly honing on a ceramic rod steel or I still would need periodically sharpen knives?
 
I have never heard of Green Elephant. Surface finish matters; a poorly finished rod will be mostly useless no matter how hard it is. I use an Idahone Fine rod and it is very well finished. Sharpening Supplies has a "Messermeister Ceramic Sharpening Steel" that appears similar except for a plastic handle, and it is only $25 for the 10" model.
 
Barmaley said:
Wow, F. Dick is $130. Don't you think it would be better to get for the same purpose Spyderco Sharpmaker for half the price?

With the goal of keeping knives sharp is a scenario that I am planning to use about 5 strokes on each side of a knife per hour of kitchen cutting I am looking for about 1000 grit equivalent rod or 3000 grit?

Is it realistic to keep knives always sharp by constantly honing on a ceramic rod steel or I still would need periodically sharpen knives?
Click to expand...

I'm sure a Sharpmaker could work well for 99% of upkeep. And optional diamond or cbn rods for it are available too, if the time comes for completely resetting edges on your knives. If the knives' current geometry and edge condition are good and if the technique used with the SM is also steady, the Sharpmaker could be a worthy substitute for a ceramic honing rod.

For major rework of edges, nothing beats a relatively coarse bench stone for working speed. But for most people in the kitchen, it may never be necessary to do that.

As to grit equivalent, I'd think something around ~1000 would be more useful in general; especially if the edge gets a bit more dull and a little more work is needed to freshen it up.
 
Most of the butchers I have watched at work do not prophylactically steel their knives. They wait until the knife “slows down” and then use the steel.
 
I prefer the Idahone ceramic hones over the Green Elephant. The Green Elephant I have is textured and for me doesn't perform as well as the Idahones. If I remember correctly Idahone offers a couple different options but my most used is a 1200.

I use it mostly while processing meat and as you stated kitchen knives. It does a nice job for what it is. Keeps the knives plenty sharp to get through big jobs between sharpenings. I have never tried the F. Dick ceramic hones, the F. Dick steels were what I used before switching to ceramics many years ago, I wouldn't think you'd see enough difference between the Idahone and F. Dick to warrant near $100.00 more in cost IMO.

I snapped a couple pictures ... left to right is the Green Elephant ... an Idahone 1200 ... and a Chef's Knives brand (it's a coarser rod) ...

20200503_124658.jpg
20200503_124728.jpg
 
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Thank you for the pictures and suggestions.
JJ_Colt45 said:
It does a nice job for what it is. Keeps the knives plenty sharp to get through big jobs between sharpenings.
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1200 grit seems to be able to remove some steel of the knives which you hone; if you hone them frequently I was hoping they would never need sharpening. What is the reason that sharpening is eventually needed and how often?

Each rod id different length. In you opinion, what is the optimal length?
 
I use an Idahone Fine "1200" rod myself and I like it, but I certainly wouldn't choose it as my only tool. I think the metal near the edge becomes fatigued through use and maybe from the hone itself. Even very small chips will be very slow to remove with such a fine abrasive, and the rod will clog with metal if used excessively. (I use mine dry; I don't know if oil would prevent that.) These are not 1200 JIS but much finer; I presume the estimated equivalent is ANSI.
 
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Barmaley said:
Thank you for the pictures and suggestions

1200 grit seems to be able to remove some steel of the knives which you hone; if you hone them frequently I was hoping they would never need sharpening. What is the reason that sharpening is eventually needed and how often?

Each rod id different length. In you opinion, what is the optimal length?
Click to expand...

The Idahone 1200 or "fine" as they list and it is 12" and I like it at that length ... most are 10" to 12". I do need to sharpen the knives occasionally, generally after we use them for high volume meat processing such as deer season or when we butcher beef or pork. I use bench stones mostly for sharpening work as it's quicker and easier for me. If you touch the knives up often on the ceramic rods and get comfortable with them you could in theory keep them sharp for the most part. If you use the knives for processing large quantities of meat I end up with some rolling and have had a chip or two in a blade because of contact with bone ... and for that a bench stone is a better option for me. A Sharpmaker would handle those knives if you prefer it ... or a coarser ceramic hone maybe would do the work but take longer as they are mostly "fine" and don't remove much metal quickly.

Ceramic hones aren't a solve all do it all tool for me, but they are handy in some uses and I much prefer them to steels.
 
Barmaley said:
Thank you for the pictures and suggestions.

1200 grit seems to be able to remove some steel of the knives which you hone; if you hone them frequently I was hoping they would never need sharpening. What is the reason that sharpening is eventually needed and how often?

Each rod id different length. In you opinion, what is the optimal length?
Click to expand...

Honing sort of stretches the material at the apex and as M Mr.Wizard said, it will eventually weaken and need to be reset.
 
Eli Chaps said:
Honing sort of stretches the material at the apex and as M Mr.Wizard said, it will eventually weaken and need to be reset.
Click to expand...
I guess I misconceived word "honing". I was thinking of honing as sharpening on a fine stone in order to remove much smaller amount of material than when sharpening. Can you guys help me understand the situation with honing vs sharpening and material stretches better?
 
Barmaley said:
I guess I misconceived word "honing". I was thinking of honing as sharpening on a fine stone in order to remove much smaller amount of material than when sharpening. Can you guys help me understand the situation with honing vs sharpening and material stretches better?
Click to expand...

To me, you're not wrong. Honing is sharpening but widely considered that final bit of perfection.

Rods can absolutely remove material but they can also somewhat stretch or elongate it. But no matter the case, the edge will eventually weaken and need to be reset.

We're going to get in over my head soon so maybe one of the better versed fellas will chime in.

Also, here is an awesome resource: https://scienceofsharp.com/home/
 
Barmaley said:
I guess I misconceived word "honing". I was thinking of honing as sharpening on a fine stone in order to remove much smaller amount of material than when sharpening. Can you guys help me understand the situation with honing vs sharpening and material stretches better?
Click to expand...

It can be difficult to put precise definitions on these type of words, as their use will vary around the World, not even considering translation to and from other languages.

Usually, sharpening is removing metal from the bevel, or thinning the bevel, and honing is forming the actual apex. So stropping, steeling, or micro-bevelling are honing. Ceramic rods simply form a microbevel, there is no "stretching" happening.
 
ToddS said:
Ceramic rods simply form a microbevel, there is no "stretching" happening.
Click to expand...

How about fatigue from lateral deflection? Somehow a ceramic rod doesn't seem to work forever for me; eventually I need to use stones even if there isn't obvious edge damage. Can you see an explanation for this or is it just lack of skill?
 
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