Barmaley's Aggregated Questions Thread

Mr.Wizard said:
How about fatigue from lateral deflection? Somehow a ceramic rod doesn't seem to work forever for me; eventually I need to use stones even if there isn't obvious edge damage. Can you see an explanation for this or is it just lack of skill?
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Ceramic rods remove metal by adhesive wear, which requires a minimum threshold of pressure. Once your microbevel is too wide, you can't apply sufficient pressure to exceed that threshold without increasing the angle and forming a new microbevel. At some point you have to thin the bevel (sharpen) to lower that apex angle again.
 
ToddS said:
It can be difficult to put precise definitions on these type of words, as their use will vary around the World, not even considering translation to and from other languages.

Usually, sharpening is removing metal from the bevel, or thinning the bevel, and honing is forming the actual apex. So stropping, steeling, or micro-bevelling are honing. Ceramic rods simply form a microbevel, there is no "stretching" happening.
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Thanks for weighing in Todd. Do the steel rods stretch the bevel or am I just completely off base? I could swear I remember reading that a few times but I've surely been wrong before.
 
Eli Chaps said:
Thanks for weighing in Todd. Do the steel rods stretch the bevel or am I just completely off base? I could swear I remember reading that a few times but I've surely been wrong before.
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You are not wrong as far as a honing steel (a metal rod) they do not remove metal only realign or "bend" the edge back to straight, which does weaken it.

Ceramic or sharpening hones (includes diamond rods also) instead of just bending the edge back they remove metal and do actually sharpen the blade.

In my personal experience most of the ceramic rods I use are a "fine" to what I would call "very fine" surface and they do a nice job of keeping knives working much longer than without using them. But they also take that toothy edge out of a knife after awhile. And IMHO a good toothy edge is far superior cutting meats or in kitchen duty with most any foods. And I'm sure professionals that use them daily can probably stay very consistent on angles while using hones, I rush sometimes and eventually my edges get thin and won't hold up as well, thus needing a traditional sharpening.

So even if my edges are not damaged I do sharpen up to a 400 to 600 grit stone occasionally if only to get that bite back and remove any stressed metal.

I am definitely not an expert but have been using steels whether steel or ceramic (and only recently diamond) for over 30 years and these are just my personal observations. I do believe the ceramic sharpening hones were a huge plus when I switched to them. I have used the Spyderco Sharpmaker diamond rods a bit in this roll but they are too short and too coarse to be very useful for me for this purpose. You can buy diamond hones that are 10" - 12" but I have only tried one and have not formed an opinion on it yet, but that may be a good answer to keep more "bite" in my knives longer between actual sharpening.

And while I believe they are great tools for what they are, IMHO I don't think any honing rod can totally replace a stone.
 
Eli Chaps said:
Thanks for weighing in Todd. Do the steel rods stretch the bevel or am I just completely off base? I could swear I remember reading that a few times but I've surely been wrong before.
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There are no absolutes, metal does flow in some circumstances. As an obvious example, when an indenter tip is pushed into the surface to perform a hardness test.

If you look closely at the images in https://scienceofsharp.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/ you will see some evidence of "flow" but it is the removal of metal and the formation of a microbevel that restores the edge, not the plastic flow.

JJ_Colt45 said:
You are not wrong as far as a honing steel (a metal rod) they do not remove metal only realign or "bend" the edge back to straight, which does weaken it.
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Even a smooth, polished rod removes metal by adhesive wear (galling) and forms a microbevel. In some circumstances, metal can be "flowed" or "pushed" into a quasi-apex, and you are correct, it is very weak. See for example the "failed" sharpening in https://scienceofsharp.com/2019/06/08/what-does-steeling-do-part-2-the-card-scraper/
 
A smooth steel flows the metal around it to the extent there are highs and lows. Once these are gone it it begins to draw out the metal into a pressure burr. You can see this when steeling metals with large carbides like D2 - they will get pushed right out of the metal along the apex if the angle is too steep or amount of force is too high.

Some of the metal will be removed but most is simply pushed aside. The surface texture of the "steel" both depth and approach angle makes a big difference in how this works.

Some day I'll make a smooth steel that rolls freely along the edge like the roller burnishers that are used for finish machining. At that point there should be zero steel removal. I'll bet it won't work very well.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling.956235/
 
HeavyHanded said:
A smooth steel flows the metal around it to the extent there are highs and lows. Once these are gone it it begins to draw out the metal into a pressure burr. You can see this when steeling metals with large carbides like D2 - they will get pushed right out of the metal along the apex if the angle is too steep or amount of force is too high.

Some of the metal will be removed but most is simply pushed aside. The surface texture of the "steel" both depth and approach angle makes a big difference in how this works.

Some day I'll make a smooth steel that rolls freely along the edge like the roller burnishers that are used for finish machining. At that point there should be zero steel removal. I'll bet it won't work very well.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-very-quick-and-close-look-at-steeling.956235/
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THAT's what I was remembering. Thanks buddy. :)
 
Thank you all for invaluable insight! It helps me to develop my idea. My objective is to develop a technique to maintain kitchen knives in such a way that: A) make it most ergonomic, easy, simple and human friendly B) eliminate the need for professional sharpening relying on maintenance only.

My logic is: if I use a V-shaped 15 degree ceramic rods which will micro-sharpen knives for about 5 strokes per hour of cooking and the grid is selected the way that on average each sharpening removes not too much and not too little material the knives will always be sharp. If to make it sharp I would have to use 600 grid rod, I may need as well additional pair of V-shaped rod of higher grid (3000? 6000?) to make bevel polished and stropped. Do you think if it possible by selecting proper grid ceramic rods?
 
Barmaley said:
Thank you all for invaluable insight! It helps me to develop my idea. My objective is to develop a technique to maintain kitchen knives in such a way that: A) make it most ergonomic, easy, simple and human friendly B) eliminate the need for professional sharpening relying on maintenance only.

My logic is: if I use a V-shaped 15 degree ceramic rods which will micro-sharpen knives for about 5 strokes per hour of cooking and the grid is selected the way that on average each sharpening removes not too much and not too little material the knives will always be sharp. If to make it sharp I would have to use 600 grid rod, I may need as well additional pair of V-shaped rod of higher grid (3000? 6000?) to make bevel polished and stropped. Do you think if it possible by selecting proper grid ceramic rods?
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Honestly if it is primarily for Western kitchen knives I'd use a grooved and smooth steel.

The grooved one resets the bevel and the smooth one burnishes the cutting edge. Most kitchen knives are pretty low Rockwell C and the steels do a very nice job with very little fuss once you get the hang.
I would not recommend for most hunting and sport/tactical knives, I used to maintain my kitchen knives for years with a grooved/smooth combination.
 
HeavyHanded HeavyHanded Perhaps a silly request but would you consider making a brief video of your technique for steeling Western kitchen knives? I have never used an actual steel, only an Idahone rod.
 
I am keeping my King waterstones always in buckets with water to keep them always wet. Is there a problem to have them always submerged, can I ruin them?
 
I got a piece of natural quartzelite, if feels like medium grit finish on the polished side. I would like to experiment and try to sharpen using it. Do I use water or oil for this stone?
 
No. King water stones (at least the traditional ones) can be permanently kept soaked or 'permasoaked'.
 
I read somewhere that natural stones are oil stones. Is it always true? Can I ruin an oil stone if I use it with water? I know that I can not go from oil to water.
 
Just remember they need to be covered. If they are left open, dirt/dust can accumulate in the water and saturate into the stone.
 
Barmaley said:
I got a piece of natural quartzelite, if feels like medium grit finish on the polished side. I would like to experiment and try to sharpen using it. Do I use water or oil for this stone?
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Hi,
Most likely Quartzite
not Quartzolite



Barmaley said:
I read somewhere that natural stones are oil stones. Is it always true? Can I ruin an oil stone if I use it with water? I know that I can not go from oil to water.
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Hi,
What happens when you use it with water?
Does it shed grits easily?
Does it make actual mud as you sharpen?
If it does these things, then you've got waterstone.

Or
If oil hurts the stone somehow (like manufacturer says no oil) then you've got waterstone.

But what you've got is probably a granite like glass like brick like brick
that doesn't shed grits easily,
so you might benefit from a drop of oil

A drop or q-tip of oil is all it takes, a light sheen not a puddle/pool
 
Barmaley said:
Intuitively I think I need about 10-15 times larger picture to see burr and the edge clear, however I think I need at least two glass system to get such result - am I wrong? Does multiplication related to focus of a glass? Can I improve old photo camera lens to make it a microscope?
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Hi,
but do you really need to see them?
A simple flashlight can help you see a burr without feeling for it or
figured-out-new-way-to-see-burr-easy.1542203/
9j4zNq7h.jpg
 
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