Basic-10, Choil or No Choil?

Basic-10, Choil or No Choil?

  • Choil

    Votes: 75 55.6%

  • No Choil

    Votes: 60 44.4%
  • Total voters
    135
I voted no choil, because I would like to try it sans. I have the B11, so I already have one with a choil.

Not that I will be ordering one. (See above about already having a B11).
 
I voted no Choil, but am having second thoughts. I'll decide right before ordering. Wre it not for the new Battle Mistress announced, I'd get 2, one of each.
 
BigLebowski65 said:
I still stand by my comparison of batoning with a knife to a bridge. One side of the support is provided by the blade engaged with a piece of wood sitting on the ground and another being feet/ knees/ass of the user, whatever touches the ground, with the holding hand as only one of number of connection through which the counterforce would travel (the aching joints of the fingers perhaps being the weakest), but I don’t believe that end should be considered as being up in the air, no matter how soft or shaky it may be.

I’m not clear about the difference between a load and a shock load you are referring to. It appears to me, the only difference would be the time during which the down force is applied, and that seems irrelevant here. We are talking about the difference in forces that would break a choiles and choied knives by way of a transferring energy from the external object to the spine of the knife, and I believe that the time has no effect there (Newton’s second law?).

I don’t know where I’ve got it, but I always thought that the main reason for a choil is to reinforce the weakest point of a knife that is being the transition from ricasso to the edge due to the right angle, not to provide a convenience of choking the blade or sharpening it, those are byproducts.
Anyway, I don’t have much else to add, as I’m at the edge of my understanding of Newtonian physics in the world of which we seem to be living.

And LC, thank you for a stimulating discussion, always a pleasure.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, Shock is a type of load, but as you say done much quicker. Like putting your hand on a door and slowly applying pressure vs. punching the door. If you slowly apply pressure with your hand, the load transfers out throughout door and you could potentially break the hinges if it's locked, or you could create a long fracture in the wood. If you quickly apply the force through a punch, you concentrate the load on the local surface and your more likely to punch straight through it, without damage to the hinges or larger damages because the force didn't have time to spread out.

Shock steels are steels that are designed to minimize fractures during shock loads, loads that applied quickly and at completely different vectors (such as variable angle hammer knives for car demolition). I am pretty uneducated, everything I know about these things comes from discussions on blade forums. I assume that shock steels have a smelted matrix thats variable for carbide size to minimize lines of consistently that can lead to fractures, and is formulated similarly to INFI in that it aims for the highest malleability at high hardness possible. Instead of resisting the force applied to it and transferring the load into the steel matrix, the localized metal absorbs the force and deforms.

I agree with you that even though the hand may be weaker in it's ability to apply counter force compared to the wood, the shock is centered above the ricasso and likely concentrates it's energy on the ricasso, choil, and ricasso to tang transition.

When you say that the ricasso to edge transition is at a 'right angle' what do you mean? From what I can see on the choilless knives I have from busse (a BOSS Jack LE in front of me) there aren't any right angles. The line from the ricasso to edge is a 180 degree line, and all of the 'corners' are radiused to avoid stress risers. I don't understand what structure is there that would make it a likely location of breakage, other than the idea of it being directly under the shock load (which it really shouldn't be if your trying to avoid damaging your knife handle). If everything was done with a sharp corner, I'd agree with you in so far as it being a week spot, but if the corners were kept sharp in the choiled version I'd assume it would be just as likely to break at a stress riser as the non-choiled version. Sharp corners concentrate stress regardless of your geometry. If both versions are rounded at all corners, I go back to wondering what it is about the straight line of the non-choiled version that would make it the weakest point...

Untitled-3.jpg
 
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I voted for the Choil! :) It makes the Basic 10 look like...well, a 10!
 
I think I'll be going for Choil option so it will match the looks of my Basic 6 LE at least. I think that would be worth the 1/2" of cutting edge I'd probably be loosing vs. the Choiless option.

-Ed
 
Last Visible Canary said:
When you say that the ricasso to edge transition is at a 'right angle' what do you mean? ........ I go back to wondering what it is about the straight line of the non-choiled version that would make it the weakest point...
Click to expand...

Capture.png


Pardon my drawing.
The arrow above ricasso represents application of an external force via batoning.
Another arrow points at the Right (Square) angle.
It is my firm belief it takes less force to break a knife at this point if there is no choil in compare to the same knife with one.
 
Lexi said:
I voted for the Choil! :) It makes the Basic 10 look like...well, a 10!
Click to expand...

You wouldn’t by chance be Lexi from Busse Combat, would you?
You wouldn’t be browsing the internet forums during your work hours, decreasing the economic output of your work, and therefore forcing Jerry to increase the margins on his products? :D :D :D :D
 
In my opinion, choils are only for looks and serve no practical purpose. I think it's great that Busse is offering this option and hope they continue to do this in the future.
 
BigLebowski65 said:
Capture.png


Pardon my drawing.
The arrow above ricasso represents application of an external force via batoning.
Another arrow points at the Right (Square) angle.
It is my firm belief it takes less force to break a knife at this point if there is no choil in compare to the same knife with one.
Click to expand...

I guess my main issue is just that I don't understand why the ricasso to edge junction would be considered weaker then blade itself. It seems that (without any edges or sharp angles to concentrate stress) the edge would be being reinforced by the thicker ricasso. The breaks I've seen have always been 1/2" or more forward of that junction. The edge thats being affected by the wood is the most likely place to have damage occur that creates a stress riser to concentrate the shock forces, resulting in a fracture.

If you had chain link fence on a wall, and you were jumping on it or trying to shake it side to side, where would be the most likely place where you could damage it? If you try at the wall, the wall is unmovable by the human body, so the fence is reinforced by it, especially if it has a good anchor point to the wall (a radiused corner). If you try to break it farther along the edge, your more likely to be able to induce sway or to get the top bar to bend downward as the rest of the fence is less able to provide reinforcement. That seems to me to be what happens with breakages caused by batoning. The edge farther along the blade gets damaged and ends up breaking there, or the stresses concentrate on the thinner segment farther away from the ricasso.

I would love to have one of our physics doctors chime in here, as all I have to work with is abstract comparisons for concepts I can't put numbers behind...
 
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BigLebowski65 said:
I must have misread your picture then, I was under impression that was ricasso to blade....my bad.
Click to expand...

no, you were right the first time, I just have terrible grammar and missed a pretty important word there. I did mean ricasso to edge, not ricasso to tang
 
BigLebowski65 said:
You wouldn’t by chance be Lexi from Busse Combat, would you?
You wouldn’t be browsing the internet forums during your work hours, decreasing the economic output of your work, and therefore forcing Jerry to increase the margins on his products? :D :D :D :D
Click to expand...


Lexi from Busse Combat right here at your service. :D
 
Interesting to see everyones opinions. I have to say that generally I am a choil fan but after playing with both over the last few days the no choil is really growing on me. Still not sure which I will be packing, but either way, can't go wrong.

Garth
 
Last Visible Canary said:
no, you were right the first time, I just have terrible grammar and missed a pretty important word there. I did mean ricasso to edge, not ricasso to tang
Click to expand...

I just realized I didn't answer your question.
I think the first 1/2" of the blade sustains the most downward pressure due to the proximity to the handle, therefore reinforcing that part of the blade with a choil sounds like a healthy idea to me.

Here is a research paper on different shaped arches, and why arches support the most weight
http://oas.uco.edu/03/paper/deen1.htm

Last Visible Canary said:
mmmm. The breaks I've seen have always been 1/2" or more forward of that junction. The edge thats being affected by the wood is the most likely place to have damage occur that creates a stress riser to concentrate the shock forces, resulting in a fracture. ....
Click to expand...

I think it would depend on how smooth or abrupt the transition from ricasso to blade is:
Capture1.png
 
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Bmw4z84 said:
In my opinion, choils are only for looks and serve no practical purpose. I think it's great that Busse is offering this option and hope they continue to do this in the future.
Click to expand...


I, obviously, love choils. They make it much easier to sharpen all the way to the back of the edge and they allow for choking up further onto the blade. This in turn offers better blade control when doing finer whittling or up close cutting with your blade. So, in that way they make a large blade much more versatile for a variety of applications.

On the other hand, when I was making the video for the original SHBM and attempting to cut 12 pieces of free hanging 1" diameter hemp rope, the bundle was so wide and my aim was off by just enough, that the choil hung up on the last 1/4' inch of the bundle and I ended up ripping my shoulder completely out of the socket. Hurt like a mofo. . . On the upside, I had to drink for 3 months straight to get past the pain, so it did have its benefits!

In the end, there really is no definitive answer to which is better. It really just comes down to which is better for you and your intended application.

Let's Drink!

Jerry

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