Batoning large pieces of wood is not necessary...

[tonym]

Is this the "scraping" you guys are talking about? This guy Colhane has some neat vids. Missionary in Brazil.

That's what I call it.

Colhane is also a member here, goes by the name of "Pict"

He is an excellent contributor to BF's and knows his stuff!:thumbup:

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

I used to baton a Busse FFBM through huge pieces of wood, knotts included, but understood it was just one of those things we were all doing to test how strong our knives were. When I actually took it out on trips there was no way in hell I was going to do that same thing. Too much effort and not needed as there was always plenty of wood of a smaller diameter that could easily be split if needed.

 

[Dizwolf]

Fire has many benefits. I'd think most of them would be obvious. Light, keeps away most animals, ability to boil water, keeps people from moving around, good location signal, and mentally it gives you something to do. You don't always need it. But unless you're running from someone, it's not likely to hurt you.

Every situation doesn't call for a fire. But if you're in a situation that does call for a fire, you'd better know how to make one. Your situation didn't need a fire. That doesn't mean there's no situation out there where one would be needed.

You can claim firebuilding is a waste of time.... but I'm going to sit warm and cozy and disagree with you.

 

[R.A.T.]

Since we are going against the grain here, who says that a fire is important in the first place? Every 'survival' scenario shows a person with nothing but a knife and a lighter, so it tends to skew the picture.

What if a person had a sleeping bag and a tarp. What if they were clothed properly and had a flashlight and some Clif bars. Who would care about a fire in the least?

Could it be that learning 15 ways to make a fire and how to build 6 kinds of traps and natural cordage is really just wasting time that could have been used for more productive purposes?

Wouldn't a person who knew their limitations and was properly prepared be far ahead of someone who could construct 4 kinds of traps and knew how to make a fire with a bow drill out of nothing?

I was out not long ago on what was supposed to be an easy 4 day trip, and it turned into a situation that could easily have killed us, through some bad decisions and poor circumstances. Getting out of that didn't have the least to do with our knife, survival tin, ability to build fire, or fishing kit.

The safest course may be to prepare for the most likely first... being out after dark, getting lost, getting hurt, losing/forgetting equipment, more so than worrying about the subtle nuances of building small warming fires in cool, wet conditions in the low to mid Pac Northwest.

:thumbup::thumbup: Totally agree with you. In fact, fire may indeed be way down on the list depending on the environment and scenario. It just happens to be the skill we are discussing though

 

[R.A.T.]

[Youtube]0-6jO3qr0MA[/Youtube]

Is this the "scraping" you guys are talking about? This guy Colhane has some neat vids. Missionary in Brazil.

Didn't watch the whole video but yes, that is part of what we do. We also push cut shavings and slivers off with the same technique but instead of rubbing the edge down the pole, we're actually pushing it and cutting it.

 

[Bridog]

I've only batoned wood once. I perfer finding dead wood on the ground. Less work for us lazy people!

 

[adaman04]

Since we are going against the grain here, who says that a fire is important in the first place? Every 'survival' scenario shows a person with nothing but a knife and a lighter, so it tends to skew the picture.

What if a person had a sleeping bag and a tarp. What if they were clothed properly and had a flashlight and some Clif bars. Who would care about a fire in the least?

Could it be that learning 15 ways to make a fire and how to build 6 kinds of traps and natural cordage is really just wasting time that could have been used for more productive purposes?

Wouldn't a person who knew their limitations and was properly prepared be far ahead of someone who could construct 4 kinds of traps and knew how to make a fire with a bow drill out of nothing?

I was out not long ago on what was supposed to be an easy 4 day trip, and it turned into a situation that could easily have killed us, through some bad decisions and poor circumstances. Getting out of that didn't have the least to do with our knife, survival tin, ability to build fire, or fishing kit.

The safest course may be to prepare for the most likely first... being out after dark, getting lost, getting hurt, losing/forgetting equipment, more so than worrying about the subtle nuances of building small warming fires in cool, wet conditions in the low to mid Pac Northwest.

Fire itself, not by what method you use is a powerful thing. It has a ton of uses from warmth, signaling, water purification, cooking, etc. But beyond the practical uses, it's also very comforting. Light and warmth are powerful things.

Heck, why learn any of it at all. As long as I can carry a wall tent, a propane heater and a lantern with lots of batteries, screw fire. Outdated technology.

 

[R.A.T.]

When this debate comes up, I always revert back to Heinlein: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

 

[adaman04]

Well put. Jack of all trades, master of none is something I've perfected. Not being "great" at anything is the only thing I'm great at!

 

[twoism]

I've spent a good portion of my life in a rain forest in South America in the wet season - where everything is soaked to the core, standing or on the ground. Batoning is rarely, if ever, used there. I personally think opposite of you: Batoning shows a lack of experience building fires.

Hah, whoa. I didn't mean to offend, man. My post wasn't even directed at anyone in specific.

I'm going to ignore your comment on my apparent lack of experience, and instead ask you a question. What method do you use to make fire in a soaked, spongy coniferous forest during a week long downpour? Assuming there is no nice oak (or similar hardwood) standing around for you to harvest, which is often the case for me while camping.

I personally use an axe to fell and split the thickest standing deadwood that I can find, as I stated in my first post. But in these conditions, what's wrong with batoning? I'm not some batoning maniac (I carry a Mora Clipper, so trust me on that one), but I do see the skill as having its merits. Discounting it entirely seems odd to me.

I'm not trying to be an asshole and start butting heads with people; I'm just genuinely curious. I'm always open to new techniques, and learning from some of the guys in the industry would be nice.

 

[luckykitty]

Actually I'm not sure about the sonnet ... it would probably one of the worst poems ever written. Close to Vogon poetry ...

 

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Actually I'm not sure about the sonnet ... it would probably one of the worst poems ever written. Close to Vogon poetry ...

 

[stabman]

Close to Vogon poetry ...

"Oh freddled gruntbuggly
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!"

 

[R.A.T.]

Hah, whoa. I didn't mean to offend, man. My post wasn't even directed at anyone in specific.

I'm going to ignore your comment on my apparent lack of experience, and instead ask you a question. What method do you use to make fire in a soaked, spongy coniferous forest during a week long downpour? Assuming there is no nice oak (or similar hardwood) standing around for you to harvest, which is often the case for me while camping.

I personally use an axe to fell and split the thickest standing deadwood that I can find, as I stated in my first post. But in these conditions, what's wrong with batoning? I'm not some batoning maniac (I carry a Mora Clipper, so trust me on that one), but I do see the skill as having its merits. Discounting it entirely seems odd to me.

I'm not trying to be an asshole and start butting heads with people; I'm just genuinely curious. I'm always open to new techniques, and learning from some of the guys in the industry would be nice.

Saying "batoning is not necessary" is technically true (assuming you have something else to split your wood with), but to me saying that shows a lack of experience in wet environments (and I'm not talking about an afternoon drizzle). It's an extremely valuable skill to know.

I was simply responding to your original blanket statement with my reply. Not pissed at all.

My answer is pretty simple. Standing dead wood is always the best and that's what we seek out in the Amazon, but it doesn't have to be the size of telephone poles. I do indeed baton small stuff to start a fire. If you are in any forest, then there will be all sizes of deadwood in that forest. Now, if you choose to use bigger stuff then I have no problem with it. But no matter how much it rains there will always be standing dead wood that is dry inside and not so big around that you have to fell it with an axe. The bottom limbs off of live conifers here (Pine) make great starter wood, as does cedar bark. Not sure about your area though but I would bet I could get a fire going with a swiss army knife and a good ferro rod in the rain

 

[twoism]

I was simply responding to your original blanket statement with my reply. Not pissed at all.

My answer is pretty simple. Standing dead wood is always the best and that's what we seek out in the Amazon, but it doesn't have to be the size of telephone poles. I do indeed baton small stuff to start a fire. If you are in any forest, then there will be all sizes of deadwood in that forest. Now, if you choose to use bigger stuff then I have no problem with it. But no matter how much it rains there will always be standing dead wood that is dry inside and not so big around that you have to fell it with an axe. The bottom limbs off of live conifers here (Pine) make great starter wood, as does cedar bark. Not sure about your area though but I would bet I could get a fire going with a swiss army knife and a good ferro rod in the rain

Ah, good to hear. Sometimes it's hard to interpret tone through text.

I disagree about the size of standing dead wood, however.

I'm a land surveyor for the forestry industry, and a big part of my job is basically camping in the wet coastal mountains. In addition to that, when I was younger I worked as a tree planter and later a trail carver. Both of those jobs meant literal months at a time living in the woods out of a backpack. Most of my adult life has been in the mountains dicking around building fires, and all of my youth was spent camping and learning from skilled outdoors men.

So with that said -- in my experience with the local rain forest, anything less than 4 or so inches in diameter will be wet all the way through unless it is the elusive hardwood. It is absolutely necessary to have a tool to access the wood at least 3" deep in order to get a fire started. Finding fuel isn't so tough once your fire is going, but getting it strong is very difficult. If you could do it in my neck of the woods with just a SAK and a firesteel, I'd be VERY surprised (and promptly stop what I was doing and sign up for your survival course). Not saying you couldn't do it; it's just something I've never seen before.

This is my backyard. I live on a mountain inside a cloud and it never stops raining. I wish I could walk 200 yards with my Izula in tow and find everything I need for a fire.

PS: I think I like this forum thing :thumbup:

 

[R.A.T.]

The hardest place I have ever built fire is in the Amazon jungle. Bow drill is completely out of the question. It takes a lot of time and patience but we have always managed to get a fire going with minimal tools, even when most everything is thoroughly soaked. Not easy but it can be done. Again, it's patience and knowing your environment though.

 

[JV3]

whoa. lots of replies since i checked this thread yesterday. only thing i see wrong is the amount of people posting here on a sunday afternoon...you guys should've gone hiking! my excuse is i just woke up two hours ago...lots of booze last night

as the great moose once said, "were you able to start a fire? if yes, then who care's how you did it as long as you can do it every time you need to in your particular environment." or something like that.

 

[santacruz]

Oh wow, I was being a smartass when I called Canada's (and the NW US) rain a drizzle. Been there, done that. In fact I spent a year in the Northwest about 7 years ago.

Have yall ever tried scraping (more of a push cut) wrist sized dead wood for tinder or for flattening out a fire board? Works pretty good and that's what we use in the Amazon to gather tinder for fires. But again, most everything we're talking about here is wrist size or smaller. I think most folks here have interpreted this thread as a NO BATONING thread. Go back and re-read the OP, children I baton all the time on small pieces for kindling. All I'm saying is batoning has become the latest dance craze that everyone wnats to do because it's cool, not because it's necessary. We use it as an expedient means to an end, and while that's fine, I can also see youngsters to the art using this shortcut instead of really learning fire making from the ground up. THAT'S THE ONLY POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IN THIS WHOLE THREAD, GIRLS!

This all just points back to the quote that got me to buy my ESEE 3MIL and 4. Something about this whole industry is BS. All you really need is a 3" blade with a $15 machete. Minutes later I placed my order for that 3MIL. Thanks for being honesty and sticking to principals. Hard to find people so consistent.

 

[fixer]

When this debate comes up, I always revert back to Heinlein: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

haven't conned any ships or written any sonnets yet. is there a forum for that?

 

[JBarbaresi]

well i don't know about all this batoning and "survival talk", but that has to be one of the best looking wraps i've ever seen on an izula if i must say so myself

glad to see it is getting put to some good use and not sitting in a land fill somewhere.

btw, since everyone is curious, i was originally looking for advice on the best way to sharpen the broken tip out, and jeff literally held a gun to my head through the computer and made me send it back to him.