Batoning wood with knives/Nutnfancy

[KnifeEnthusiast]

In the last thread I started on BF (regarding the Cold Steel Leatherneck that broke while being batoned through a piece of wood) one of the people who replied stated that they did not understand the batoning trend we are seeing lately.

Now I'm not saying Nutnfancy invented batoning, but his videos are where I first saw that technique.
His videos are also where I first met the outstanding Ontario RTAK II.

I think Nutnfancy has a large following on youtube and is a big reason, if not thee reason we are seeing so many batonig vids.
I hadn't seen any batoning vids before Nutnfancy.
Also after Nutnfancy shared all his vids showing him thumping on an RTAK II I saw a huge increase in the amount of RTAKII vids on youtube.
I looked and looked for vids about the RTAK II other than Nutnfancy's on youtube before I purchased mine just 2 years ago and found very few.
Now there is no shortage.

Now we can go online and see all sorts of men batoning all sorts of knives through all sorts of wood.
Some of these knives are going to fail.
Some of the knives that do fail never should have been batoned in the 1st place.
Some of the knives are faulty.
Some such as the mighty RTAK II meet a piece of knotty wood, cannot cut through the knot and fail after being thumped on in an inappropriate manner.
In fact a good friend of mine broke his RTAK II this way.
(Ontario has said they will replace it, he has not sent the broken one back yet.)

I still find batoning (while not appropriate for every knife) a good test for a hard use survival knife.

 

[ocnLogan]

Welcome to BF man, have a seat around the campfire .

As far as batoning, I fall more under the "its acceptable for certain categories of knives" school of thought.

Now, I won't use a knife to baton wood to say... provide wood for a wood stove heated cabin for the whole winter or something like that. I do however find it perfectly acceptable to do while camping to get acceptable kindling for the fire. For the cabin... I'm going to be splitting the wood with a gas powered wedge before I do it with my knife .

I'm not going to baton with a folder, unless I absolutely have to (not sure how that would happen, but I'll stand by that), and don't really think it is an acceptable "test" for folders. For me, batoning is solidly beefy fixed blade category work.

I feel much more controlled splitting wood for a campfire with a baton and a knife than I do with a hatchet. Maybe because I frequently camp or make "smore" fires in the backyard around younger/inexperienced people, but having one less edge flying around seems much safer to me (note, I'm never EVER consciously going to be swinging something with an edge when there isn't sufficient safety room around, but if your nephews are like mine they can appear as if from nowhere and I'd rather be safe). Some of this preference might come because I am not as experienced with a hatchet or ax as many others. But for right now, I like a folding saw and a knife for my wood processing tasks while doing campfire type stuff.

So there you go, thats my take on batoning.

And if you are looking for knives to baton... get a Becker, they're the Battoniest .

 

[Tsujigiri]

You seem to have bought wholesale into Nutnfancy's self-promotion... I think he does do something good for the knife community by bringing people into the hobby, but he doesn't have nearly the influence on the industry that he seems to think he does. You can go out and baton folders into wood if you want, but you're just asking for problems. And after spending a while in this hobby, I think you'll find that you'll get more enjoyment out of it by using the proper knives the way they were meant to be used, rather than trying to reenact youtube "torture tests."

 

[goodeyesniper]

Nutnfancy is more of a byproduct of popular websites like bladeforums than anything. He is pretty much a regurgitator of trends found here, which then get passed on to people less "into" the knife scene. So, no, he was in no way the start of its popularity.

 

[Flexxx]

Nutnfancy is a tool.

Esee Junglas kicks some batoning ass though....

Folding saw us good for processing wood also, I do both when backpacking

 

[CWL]

Great. So now you know how to hit a piece of wood into a knife to make smaller pieces of wood.

 

[JoeLan]

As far as batoning, I fall more under the "its acceptable for certain categories of knives" school of thought.
I'm not going to baton with a folder, unless I absolutely have to (not sure how that would happen, but I'll stand by that), and don't really think it is an acceptable "test" for folders. For me, batoning is solidly beefy fixed blade category work.

:thumbup: I agree

 

[T. Koch]

I really think it depends on the edge geometry. I find it pretty obvious that one shouldn't be battoning with a full flat ground knife - no matter how thick the spine may be.

 

[payus]

Who started the battoning trend was in fact Bear Grills
Try a search and you'll probably batonning on the first season which is before the nut'n'fancy vids.

I first tried batonning almost 4-5 years ago, with a Muela folder, it was necessary as we had no other wood, no other way to make fire and we were isolated. I end up ruining the blade, the fitting and everything in between to get a few chips, I didn't even do it half right as I hit perpendicular to the wood lines(yeah, I'm an idiot).

After that I tried other non-descript knives with some results, but this time I already learned the propper technique,

But it wasn't until I bought my Fällkniven F1 That I really did some battoning.
As for now, the F1 hasn't failed yet, but it has some wear. Also, you might consider it has cut may hard woods and 10 cm diameter logs at least.

heres a pic:

It is now being restored

here's a larger pic, it's dirty I know, but otther that that it has some minor scratches and 2-3 chippings.

 

[Boberama]

I absolutely hate battoning.

Somehow the human race has been getting along for many thousands of years without pounding their knives into pieces of wood and frequently snapping them in half.

 

[dayhiker1968]

People have been batoning long before TV and the internet.

I see it as acceptable with a proper fixed blade, within reason.

Otherwise make a wedge and use two pieces of wood to split another piece of wood. Works just as well.

 

[broe]

Batoning has a time and place. It can be done on many types of blades from butcher blades and machetes to small field craft blades. Care and skill must be taken when doing it. Incidently, I have been teaching it since 1987. Learning how to do it right before you need to do this is important...just as learning that new way to light a fire.

 

[not2sharp]

People have been batoning long before TV and the internet.

They certainly have.

n2s

 

[Planterz]

Who started the battoning trend was in fact Bear Grills

 

[:IV:]

Ehhh, I quit watching nutnfancy's vids mostly for the "DUDE, AWESOME, RADICAL, 90's Teen Slang"-ness of it, not to mention there's one review video where you basically wait through a 12-minute rant before he even puts the knife he's reviewing in front of the camera.

I prefer Cutlerylover over most reviewers although there are some other talented ones out there. The one thing I do dig about nutnfancy's videos is his use of the catalogs. I like his catalog look-through videos and you get a good idea of what sort of knives he as a person likes. I also enjoy his interviews with manufacturers at knife-shows, but him as a person... I just can't be that lame to take anything he says seriously. It's like he pulls all of his dialogue from Rocket Power reruns on Nicktoons.

Also, he's got quite an ego. I see him reviewing some knives remarking "they did this because of the nutnfancy project".

I'd like him a lot more if he kept himself a bit more humble and stayed to the facts when it came to reviewing, especially when your "project" is you and your buddies out in the woods screwing up knives you personally bought with no additional funding.

 

[Planterz]

Call me "old fashioned" (as old fashioned as a 31 year old suburbanite can be), but I don't even like video reviews. Between the "um"s and "uh"s, out-of-focus close-ups that don't show you anything, and the constant knifesturbation, they bore and annoy me. Give me a good ol' pictorial review any day.

 

[unit]

Batoning is like flicking a folder repeatedly. It is almost always un-necessary, but some find it fun to do. Some knives can handle it, some will survive it for a while, and some should really never be asked to perform either task.

If the knife is yours, do as you wish...just remember that the results of your actions are also yours!

I have seen guys baton carefully with a slip joint...it can be done. This proof of concept is not indication that it SHOULD be done and that often is the problem on the web. Finally, (and most of all) this proof of concept for one knife should never be used as a platform to argue warranty coverage for ANY knife...and I see that all the time "brand Y can do it, why can your brand not..."

Lets all be big boys and girls, buy what you like, use it how you like, break it if you like...then decide if you ought do it again, but please do not try and make it someone else's responsibility unless they specifically tell you to hammer on their product with a make shift baton or mallet.

 

[1234]

+1 Unit !

I posted this gem in the other thread , I always think green , so let me recycle it.

I've only watched the vid once and I probably will never watch it again. But the part that got my attention was the very little thumping the guy did on the Leather neck to make the cutting edge warp in the 1st place. I guess I'm not that surprised he broke the knife seeing as how I would not classify this knife as a hard use survival knife.
Batoning is hard use in my books.

But would you classify the Ka-Bar large heavy bowie as a "hard use survival knife" ?

He did the same thing to that knife .

I think the lesson here is that if you choose to baton , you risk destroying your knife , sometimes the edge , or the blade/tang breaks,
and blaming heat treatment/something , in an actual survival situation , wont make the knife magically whole again ,

sure there are knifes that handles "abuse" better than others , but why risk the most important tool you have in an actual survival situation ,
and for no good reason , "processing" wood , the wood he batoned was bone dry with hard knots , don´t you think there is
something wrong there , batoning is supposed to be a way of getting dry wood when it´s wet , and I´m not talking about
batoning big limbs or logs either, just big enough to get a little dry wood to start your fire with .

Let me repost this instructive video.
[video=youtube;kFKzvWDeiFc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKzvWDeiFc&feature=related[/video]

1234,,,,,,,

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...om-the-CS-Leatherneck?p=10400558#post10400558

1234,,,,,,

 

[stoffi]

Batoning is nothing new. I was taught the technique in the mid 80's (boyscouts) and it was further taught to me in the military in the late 90's. It's not something you should do if you actually HAVE an axe, but if you don't, it something that can be done; so, I'm pretty sure people have been doing it since the stone age.

Nutnfancy has HIS take on things. I think he does an excellent job at introducing this hobby to noobs and half-noobs, but it doesn't make his word final in any way. He constantly reminds us that what he says is what HE believes and that he may or may not be right. So, you've gotta take it for what it is.

 

[Quy4n8]

Batoning with a knife is not a smart idea. It may be necessary in a survival situation, but do it often enough, or have one incorrect strike and your knife will chip, break, etc. The steels used in knives are designed to either be wear resistant and/or be hard enough to not roll their edge. With the possible exception of CPM 3V and INFI (I don’t know exactly what the constitution or heat treat of INFI is) they are brittle steels in the overall picture of steels that are available, and stainless steels even more so than non-stainless steels. Axes, splitting mauls and wedges are made from either plain carbon steels heat treated to a lower value than knives or shock resistant steels. These metals are designed to deal with impact. An inverse example of this would be the steel that has been used in the machine tool industry for years and is now just starting to be used for knives; M4 or Crucibles particle version, CPM M4. You can cut soft steel with it all day if your speeds and feeds are correct (I don’t know of any wood tougher or harder than steel), but try splitting wood with it (especially if it is hardened to greater than 56 RC) and see how long it lasts. Impact is the reason behind this.
The forces involved in impact are generally much greater than those seen when cutting due to inertia and most knives won’t deal with it for very long. Also, when batoning, if your strike to the back of the blade is not in line with the edge by even a small amount, you are creating significant side loads at the blades weakest point, the edge. Every time you strike the back of the blade you are also inducing vibration, might not seem important, but most likely that is mode of failure when knives break at their plunge lines or at the juncture between the blade and handle. Many knives also have weaknesses designed into them, sharp corners at plunge lines, at the heal of the edge, at the tang. These all cause unnecessary stress within the steel when heat treated; that’s why they fail at these point.
The other item of note has also been mentioned, but bears repeating; the geometry of the blade. Convex is the strongest for this type of work. That is why most axes are convex ground. In my mind, splitting wood with a knife is abuse, you might have to do it in certain circumstances, but don’t be surprised if your knife breaks. If you need to split wood, use a splitting maul and wedges or a powered wood splitter.
P.S. Axes are also not designed to split wood, but to cut it. Read some of the old books about logging written before 1940. Some of them discuss in depth what tool to use and why. Steels haven’t changed enough that their writings are outdated.