Batoning wood with knives/Nutnfancy

I try to make as quality a video as I can. When I batoned with a cold steel outdoorsmN liye I was taking very thin pieces of. As far as batoning goes. I domt see why you would need to split a log down the middle anyway. Small pieces to get a fire going, then let the fire do the work. If I do crappy videos I wish someone would just tell me. Save us all the annoyance.
 
I really don't see the point to why people hate it so much. Most quality makers make knives with this use in mind and make them robust enough to take it. Just like froes were designed to take it. However, there's batoning and then there's BATONING. What the nutnfancy and the grylls does IMO is abuse to a knife. When I say I baton it isn't to split 6" logs down the middle and through knots like these guys and a lot of guys on the forum. It's to split off small sticks from pre cut wood to make kindling and I do it with my Izula 2 with a 2.5" blade. I actually apply very little force to the knife when doing this. So, like everything in life, there's people who do a thing rationally and safely and there are those who take it to the extreme.
 
Batoning is currently popular IMO for a number of reasons. One is that the technology the last several years (the growth of sites like YouTube that make it easy to post free videos, the growth of easy video-capture equipment like cheap digital cameras, etc.) has made it easier to spread these ideas. Perhaps many people in the past wouldn't have used their knives this way, but the idea has caught on rapidly due to the technology spreading the idea. Folks like NutnFancy just happened to be some of the first to get on board with these new technologies, so the "first guys in" always become the most well known. Another reason I think batoning has become popular is, it's a good and accessible way to test a field, all-purpose, or survival knife for overall toughness beyond just basic slicing performance. It's not a hard test to perform and almost anybody can do it. Even if I don't plan to do a lot of batoning, for a knife that I want to use for field or survival bag use, it IS one good test of overall strength and performance. A third reason I think is the growth of interest in survivalism, and techniques related to it. Perhaps in pre-survivalist days, most folks would just bring along the 'ideal' tools for a job normally (a saw, an axe, a machete, etc.). Now, there's a lot of interest out there in minimalism, trying to find the "one tool" that is lightweight and that you can make serve for many purposes. Hence, the idea of a survival knife that can chop, split, pry, hack, slice, etc. etc.

Setting aside all those other reasons, is batoning a "good" thing? Answer: it depends on your intended purpose and use of the knife. Here's an easy example. I have a 4.5" stainless fixed Doug Ritter knife (made by Benchmade, based on the old fixed Griptilian design). Great all-purpose field and camp knife. However, not that great for survival use at only 0.140" thick. You CAN baton with it, and Doug has in his testing, but I plan not to unless it's a last resort. I have a saw and a large chopper (a Junglas) I can bring along for those tasks, so I'm not going to abuse this nice knife (which cost $150) in this way. But now, consider another knife. I'm planning to buy another blade in the 4" to 6" range, a carbon steel "tough" blade that can go in my bug-out bag. This blade is something that, if there's a regional disaster in my area (most typical would be an earthquake or active volcano event), would be in my 'get-home' bag from work. It would need to make do for all cutting/chopping/prying purposes, so batoning is a good test for it. When I finally decide on and buy this blade (say an ESEE 5 or 6, or a Swamp Rat Ratmandu), I definitely intend to baton with it, as a way of testing the blade's strength for survival situations, and improving my skills at making fires when I don't have all the ideal tools (like an axe) on hand.

So, I think there's a lot of complex reasons why 'batoning' has become so popular. Yes some people get carried away with it and hence you have knowledgeable knife and survival guys like Jeff Randall who laugh about the "gay baton fanboys" and so forth. The general consensus of these guys is that this batoning thing has gone WAY overboard and people should be using the right tools for the job, and not abusing knives that were not designed for splitting wood. In general, that's good advice and I agree whole-heartedly. I have an assortment of hatchet, camp axe, folding Silky Saw, Condor Golok machete, and an ESEE Junglas, and at times, all of these can be the ideal tool for the job at hand.

But that said, the catch is that you can't always have the "ideal tool" with you. So, I still think there's a LIMITED but important place for batoning among knife owners. It's a good skill to have if you care about being prepared for survival situations (as part of your fire-making skills), and it's also a great test of a hard-use knife that you would want to be able to use for all tasks in a survival situation, or if you are a minimalist backpacker (this is another growing movement) who wants to get by with a minimum lightweight set of gear.

So my take is: batoning is ok, yes you can get too carried away with it and try to do it with knives that weren't designed for it, but it IS a useful skill to have and with a hard-use or do-all survival knife, it's a legitimate thing to do.
 
A full flat grind in not optimal for batoning, but it can serve, particularly if relatively thick at the spine.

I was taught to split wood with a knife in training in 1963. It was not called "batoning." It was called splitting wood with a knife. The Marine instructor used a MK II. He also showed us how easy it was to break the knife if used improperly (rock handle down below cut and strike tip end).

People have been splitting wood by striking blades for centuries - or longer. That's how most roofing shingles got made well into the life of this nation.

Batoning is not necessary unless it is. I have only had to do it once, but was glad that I could. I have done it a few times for practice. It's good to have a feel for how much force a tool can take, although that does not make for entertaining videos.

Batoning is "hard use" if it involves hard use. If it's easy to split off slices of wood, it's not . . . . hard. Anyone can overstress a tool, and make entertaining videos.

Steel is made to take impact stress. Ceramic is not. 1095 was developed for plows and harrows and those tools encounter rooks and tree roots with considerable force - many times the stress of merely cutting/splitting wood with steel. Of course, the geometry is appropriate.

For me, batoning is a technique to use as needed and with due care, which does not make for entertaining videos.
 
Shotgun said:
I really don't see the point to why people hate it so much. Most quality makers make knives with this use in mind and make them robust enough to take it. Just like froes were designed to take it. However, there's batoning and then there's BATONING. What the nutnfancy and the grylls does IMO is abuse to a knife. When I say I baton it isn't to split 6" logs down the middle and through knots like these guys and a lot of guys on the forum. It's to split off small sticks from pre cut wood to make kindling and I do it with my Izula 2 with a 2.5" blade. I actually apply very little force to the knife when doing this. So, like everything in life, there's people who do a thing rationally and safely and there are those who take it to the extreme.
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The problem is that most people don't have any need to do it so they really don't understand the whole point of it in the 1st place.

Add to that most of the really stupid videos on YT of knives breaking and or chipping...

Yes it's hard use.

It may or may not be needed depending on the actual situation and those can and will vary a lot.

There really isn't just one cover it all answer to it in the end.
 
Medium sized takedown saw for cutting up logs, medium sized axe for splitting wood, smaller sharp knife for detailed cutting is the way to go IMO. Possibly also a bigger knife for removing bark and small branches, cutting up thin sticks for fire and similar tasks. Batoning with a knife for emergencies only. As in when you're extremely badly prepared and only have one tool. Sawing off a log is way faster and more economic than chopping it and leaves a plain surface for standing the wood up to be split. Splitting wood with a medium sized axe is generally way more efficient than batoning with a knife and if there's not enough safety room around for swinging an axe or if the ground surface is not quite even enough, you can actually use the axe for batoning as well.
 
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Ankerson said:
The problem is that most people don't have any need to do it so they really don't understand the whole point of it in the 1st place.
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True but you can say that about anything. I'm not going to tell a native in the jungles of Brazil that he's an idiot for using a machete to cut down a tree because I've never needed to do it. Or tell him he needs the "proper tool." In the end, it really is just closed minded bigotry. People can't comprehend that their way isn't the only way. In any event, I'm going to keep on batoning even when I don't need to and even when I have an axe at hand. To me it's easy, convenient, safe, and fun. Not to mention that carrying a 4 ounce knife beats a 24 ounce hatchet.
 
Shotgun said:
Not to mention that carrying a 4 ounce knife beats a 24 ounce hatchet.
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I understand the lighter-weight-plus-greater-versatility argument for using a knife versus a specialized chopper like a hatchet. However in fairness, I think the numbers aren't completely realistic.

First of all, you don't HAVE to use a 24oz hatchet; there are lighter hatchets. The GB min-belt hatchet weighs just a tad over 11oz--which is less than even a small chopping knife (like a Fallkniven A1)--weighs. Point is, a good-chopping hatchet does not HAVE to be super heavy. A related point is that there is no 4oz knife I know of that is going to provide anywhere near the pure chopping effectiveness of even a light hatchet like the GB mini or other small belt/camp hatchets. To get chopping that's approaching the same efficiency level as a quality small hatchet like the GB, you would need to step up to a bigger knife than 4oz. Probably at least the size of the Fallkniven A1, and many guys argue that you need knives of at least 7" to 8" blades and weighing a pound or more to get equivalent chopping performance.

As evidence of this, check out this "chop-off" on Knifetests.com, where a little Gerber hatchet beats out several knives and even the highly thought-of Cold Steel Kukri machete:
http://knifetests.com/ChoppingShootout.html

Here's another test performed by Knifetests.com guy, where a Busse chopper outdid a GB wildlife hatchet. But notice the size and quality of the Busse knife, it's 10" long, 0.25" thick, and the knife weighs 27 oz, a lot more than 4oz!!! It even outweights the GB wildlife hatchet, which is about 25oz!! And also, note that the GB outperformed another large chopper, a Browning Crowell competition knife (a 10" blade that's 0.25" thick) in the test:

http://www.knifetests.com/GransforsBruksMiniAxeDtest.html


In the end, I do agree with the larger point and think an argument can be made that a chopping type of knife can be more versatile and useful of a tool in SOME field/backpacking/survival situations when you factor in overall weight, your need for portability, and the total range of tasks it can do. My main point though, is that if you decide that you need chopping capabilities, there is really not any 4oz knife that's likely to put you on par with the same level of chopping efficiency as even a lightweight hatchet like the GB Mini. You'll probably need a large chopping knife, one that may weigh significantly MORE than the hatchet itself, to get a similar level of chopping ability. And that might well be worth it (given that the large knife can also do many other tasks, including functioning as a small machete for brush clearing, etc.), but the point is, you'll need a BIG knife if you want to equal the chopping effectiveness of a hatchet.
 
I don't understand why batoning is so controversial. I Baton all the time because its the best way for me to make a fire when its wet out.

I have NEVER damaged a knife in any way and Ive probably batoned a few thousand pieces of wood. I don't think batoning is that hard on a knife. Just don't try to split a piece of thick oak with your mora and you'll be fine.

If you have a knife of decent thickness made out of a well HT steel you should be fine. Just baton within reason.... Unless you have a Busse, then go for Madness! :D

Seriously though, batoning is no harder on a knife than chopping. I don't see what the problem is?
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KalEl said:
I don't understand why batoning is so controversial. I Baton all the time because its the best way for me to make a fire when its wet out.

I have NEVER damaged a knife in any way and Ive probably batoned a few thousand pieces of wood. I don't think batoning is that hard on a knife. Just don't try to split a piece of thick oak with your mora and you'll be fine.

If you have a knife of decent thickness made out of a well HT steel you should be fine. Just baton within reason.... Unless you have a Busse, then go for Madness! :D

Seriously though, batoning is no harder on a knife than chopping. I don't see what the problem is?
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Agree 100%

It's something i've done many times simply because i really do not want to be carrying the weight of an axe with me.

If i can get away without doing it i will, but if i feel it's something i need to do to get a fire lit i'll do.
At this stage i care very little about the consequences of doing this to my knife, i baton with the belief the knife will snap, that way all my hands and limbs are out the way, in reality though even with very cheap knives i've yet to experience a failure.

If you know your wood and you go with the grain you really don't need a big heavy log to baton with, a few taps in the right spot is enough to start it off.
Once you've started it then hitting the split side with another log is nearly always enough to separate it.

Personally i view my knives as tools.
All my knives are used regularly and are well maintained and looked after, if a knife fails while batoning then i really don't care as that's not a knife i want in my toolbox.
 
There's this huge need to know if my knife can take on baton more than necessity to do it.
And if you agree with this video, you have issue brother......:D

[video=youtube;zn_df90ckMk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn_df90ckMk[/video]
 
I have to say I am super happy I brought this up I have learned quite a bit actually. I have really benefited from all the shared knowledge. Thanks to all the constructive replies.

So far a few of the things I take away from this are:
Some guys like batoning, some do not.
Some think it's abuse, some do not.
There are knives that are up to the test, and there are some that are not.

Some people like Quy4n8 came with some great knowledge and info thank you and some like CWl came with SFA (LOL!).
Thanks to all who weighted in. We all benefit from your shared experience.

I'll say this, I will continue to baton.
I find it to be great fun and what the heck else am I gonna do with my RTAK II, really?
It's what I bought it for after I watched the Nutnfancy vids.
However I will use all this excellent info to baton in a safer way to make my knife last.
I will not use a knife that clearly is not up for this task and I will stay clear of knots and cut along the grain of the wood.

As for my opinion on Nutnfancy I am a straight up TNP'er. I am a like minded individual. No apologies given or needed.
I'd love to go out on a knife testing adventure with him.
If you aren't down with the project I have nothing bad to say to you. Why would anybody have anything bad to say to people like me?
To the detractors I say where are your vids? At least that guy puts his money where is mouth is and can back up what he says.
However there really weren't to many disrespectful people here. The name Nutnfancy never fails to bring about strong opinion.
I'm clearly down, others aren't and fair enough dude, fair enough.
Like one other poster on here said, difference of opinion is what makes the world go 'round.

Thanks again to all who gave their 2 cents I've totally enjoyed and learned.

I've been a member of this forum for a while but not spent much time here.
I'm seeing now that there are some really knowledgeable knife lovers around here. What a great forum to be on! Thanks for sharing, I'm learning. I can't wait to see what you all say next.

Having said all that, the smart asses can suck it!

Cheers.
 
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I wouldn't say i like it or not, it's just something that needs to be done some times.
I'd sooner split wood with an axe, but as i don't carry an axe when hiking Batoning is an option i choose to use.

If it came down to sitting in the cold all night with no fire or risk damaging a knife by Batoning, then for me it's not even close, i WILL have a fire that night.

If you are sensible then there is no reason Batoning will damage any half decent knife.
If you start swinging 10lb lumps of wood right on the end of your knife trying to baton a hard wood in very very cold conditions then don't expect it to last long.

If on the other hand your sensible and choose soft woods (which are better for fire starting any ways) spend a few seconds to examine the woods grain and use a moderate blow from a moderately sized log then in my opinion, if your knife fails it's a pretty useless knife.
 
Planterz said:
Call me "old fashioned" (as old fashioned as a 31 year old suburbanite can be), but I don't even like video reviews. Between the "um"s and "uh"s, out-of-focus close-ups that don't show you anything, and the constant knifesturbation, they bore and annoy me. Give me a good ol' pictorial review any day.
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Amen brudda! Amen.
 
Congratulations, you've chosen two of the most polarizing topics on BFC> If I was a mod I would move this to the political arena:rolleyes:

I won't comment on NutnFancy but as far as batonning goes, the arguments never go anywhere. Some do it and enjoy it and find it useful, others don't and don't want you to. In fact they want the government to prevent you from doing it. Its the axe gang vs the chopper gang and its gonna be bloody when the revolution starts.
 
Congratulations, you've chosen two of the most polarizing topics on BFC> If I was a mod I would move this to the political arena:rolleyes:

I won't comment on NutnFancy but as far as batonning goes, the arguments never go anywhere. Some do it and enjoy it and find it useful, others don't and don't want you to. In fact they want the government to prevent you from doing it. Its the axe gang vs the chopper gang and its gonna be bloody when the revolution starts.
 
KalEl said:
I don't understand why batoning is so controversial. I Baton all the time because its the best way for me to make a fire when its wet out.

I have NEVER damaged a knife in any way and Ive probably batoned a few thousand pieces of wood. I don't think batoning is that hard on a knife. Just don't try to split a piece of thick oak with your mora and you'll be fine.

If you have a knife of decent thickness made out of a well HT steel you should be fine. Just baton within reason.... Unless you have a Busse, then go for Madness! :D

Seriously though, batoning is no harder on a knife than chopping. I don't see what the problem is?
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Amen brotha! :D. Seriously after KalEl stated that batoning isn't any more abusive than chopping, that makes sense. In chopping you are going across the grain of the wood. Batoning is just splitting down the grain. And for most blades I would say the damage is from: Trying to baton off a piece bigger than the knife can hande, trying to baton a very twisted piece of wood, or, trying to baton through a knot. And as far as video reviews go whats with all the hate. If ou dont like videos reviews then dont watch them.
 
I "can" hammer nails with my pistol, but should I?

I "can" chop wood with my knife, but should I?

If one has a hammer or axe, respectively, you should not.

If one does not have a hammer or axe, respectively, and your life is in jeopardy, yeah, go ahead.

Nutnfancy lost a great deal of credibility in my eyes with his illegitimate "test" of the Pocket Bushman, and no, I'm not a Cold Steel phanboi.
 
Steel130 said:
Amen brotha! :D. Seriously after KalEl stated that batoning isn't any more abusive than chopping, that makes sense. In chopping you are going across the grain of the wood. Batoning is just splitting down the grain. And for most blades I would say the damage is from: Trying to baton off a piece bigger than the knife can hande, trying to baton a very twisted piece of wood, or, trying to baton through a knot. And as far as video reviews go whats with all the hate. If ou dont like videos reviews then dont watch them.
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Like this....

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Ankerson said:
Like this....

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I have seen some crazy INFI flex pictures.
This is a great one. I love how people on here tell others to spend their money though. If I buy a knife just to see how far I can flex it before it breaks. Who is anyone to say otherwise? From the pictures I saw, the knife below went back to true as well.
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