Batoning

[B34NS]

The picture I posted was taken from any source. It would not have made a difference. IT was to make the point that they did have edged tools in the day. Yes, we apparently where making different points. I get your point now. Your implication that they got along fine without batoning for thousands of years. I agree. I thought you had implied that they got along without knives for thousands of years, which of course is not true. As for the second part, I don't disagree with you, but this is happening all over. Not that I like it, but it is what it is. Who knows if the tool is even real. It is quite true that in most forest situations you can get along with ever batoning or chopping for that matter. You can break most branches off by hand and leverage. The reason for doing batoning is almost always to reach drywood in very wet conditions and I know I am stating the obvious here. However, it is a good skill to have.

I hear ya on that! Even though I've never used it on wood, I'm never against anything that adds to one's toolkit. That's why I'd mentioned my commercial kitchen experiences where we would have to process through some serious produce, it was usually with the edge of ones hand to help continue and guide the split, similar to battoning. Butternut squash comes to mind, that sorta thing. So I'm definitely not in the "don't baton ever" camp, I just never did it with a knife and wood cause I'm lazy. I usually just bring some cotton balls and chapstick with a bic and esse firesteel on a lanyard. I'm mostly beat from work all week and the sooner the fires goin, the sooner I'm enjoying bourbon thirty.

 

[Cobalt]

Lol, true. Batoning should be a last resort, because there is always a risk of breaking the knife. But it does need to be practiced.

 

[Mannlicher]

Lol, true. Batoning should be a last resort, because there is always a risk of breaking the knife. But it does need to be practiced.

depends on the knife. This one just won't break.

 

[Cobalt]

No doubt, there are those knives that will not fail. Busse being one.

 

[Boris74]

No doubt, there are those knives that will not fail. Busse being one.

You don't even need to spend that kind of money to get one of "those knives". Even that brand we don't mention here will do it

 

[Cobalt]

You don't even need to spend that kind of money to get one of "those knives". Even that brand we don't mention here will do it

As long as the knife is tested for it and passes, you are right. Problem is, how many people actually test their equipment. Not many

 

[Boris74]

As long as the knife is tested for it and passes, you are right. Problem is, how many people actually test their equipment. Not many

I agree, but I've seen axes and hatchets break splitting wood. It's fairly demanding work of any tool. Done wrong it's going to break anything. Anyone who breaks a blade will break an axe. I've seen well tested axes break first use by a noob or novice trying to use one. So what's well tested by me might not work out so well for someone who sees it on YouTube then tries to go out and do it.

 

[B34NS]

Practical as I may strive to be, I don't always use a large knife with wood, but when I do..I still know how to have fun

 

[ocnLogan]

I agree, but I've seen axes and hatchets break splitting wood. It's fairly demanding work of any tool. Done wrong it's going to break anything. Anyone who breaks a blade will break an axe. I've seen well tested axes break first use by a noob or novice trying to use one. So what's well tested by me might not work out so well for someone who sees it on YouTube then tries to go out and do it.

This brings up a good point.

I make it a point to use a knife that I buy under "controlled conditions" before I trust it as a main blade on any outing. For some of them, this does (gasp) include batoning.

The reason is that even if a DESIGN is made for that type of work, there is always the possibility that that specific instance (my "copy" of the knife so to speak) may have had a manufacturing error that causes it to be compromised. Warranties are all well and good, unless you're in a place where you can't use it (like a "survival" situation). And any manufacturer can have a blade get through QC with the wrong HT, or inclusions in the steel, etc.

And a bad HT usually crops up pretty quickly. So testing it in the backyard for a campfire, or as a secondary blade while car camping makes sure that I have a blade with me that works when I need it to. I guess I've just read one too many thread about someone who goes on a trip with shiny new big blade, batons/chops one thing, and the blade snaps in half (due to a bad HT/QC issue, no matter how rare it might be, can always happen to any company). I'd prefer not to be stranded without a tool.

So yeah, testing things is good. Not just knives, but everything. Even if the design/model is known for stuff, you should verify it works how its supposed to before you head out.

 

[USS Worden 352]

+1 on testing your equipment beforehand!

 

[AreBeeBee]

+1 on testing your equipment beforehand!

And that goes for technique, too. if an emergency situation — or just fast-deteriorating weather arises when you're far from the car/civilization/warmth — that's not the moment you want to self-instruct on batoning.

My point in this thread has been that batoning is best thought of as a "get yourself out of trouble" technique. It entails some (or maybe a lot of) risk to the knife, especially in the hands of someone new to woodcraft. It's good that thick-bladed, full-width-tang knives have come on the market, as these are least at risk for breakage in batoning.

But if you're planning on a wood fire when you head into the bush, bring a hatchet or folding saw and leave the worry behind.

 

[Boris74]

And that goes for technique, too. if an emergency situation — or just fast-deteriorating weather arises when you're far from the car/civilization/warmth — that's not the moment you want to self-instruct on batoning.

My point in this thread has been that batoning is best thought of as a "get yourself out of trouble" technique. It entails some (or maybe a lot of) risk to the knife, especially in the hands of someone new to woodcraft. It's good that thick-bladed, full-width-tang knives have come on the market, as these are least at risk for breakage in batoning.

But if you're planning on a wood fire when you head into the bush, bring a hatchet or folding saw and leave the worry behind.

I'll go a step further and leave it at leave the worry behind. Really don't matter how you do it. It's the doing it that matters most

 

[Cobalt]

Hatches and folding saw can and have broken as well. The big knife offers much more cutting surface. I do like hatchets and use them a lot and coupled with a small knife can do it all. Can't go wrong with Gransfors, Hultafors and Wetterling. I have had lots of bad luck with saws. I finally found one that worked well. We used it up at 11,000 feet a couple of years ago. It worked well. But saws are a big hit or miss thing for me.

 

[KingMC]

In batoning mass will always add volume. When you are splitting and get past the edge, which happens rather quickly, and reach the thickest point of the blade it wedges the wood out. A thicker, more mass blade by default will wedge out better. You can baton 1/8 the distance of a log and let it sit there, you can hear the fibers popping apart. Thicker blades wedge out much more quickly. Wait long enough and it takes little more force to split it completely. That pretty much answers the powder steel thinner blade question of yours. I'm not sitting here thinking about the answer either. I know people hate it here, but in my experience thicker blades split easier and faster, steel superiority will be inane.

I've batoned wood with every blade I own, even my Ti necker because a book expert friend declared it would bend before it even cut into the end. It's only 1/16" thick too. It might be on the softer side of the HRC scale but it is extremely tough. . It's stiff and springy.

Another reason thick heavy blades for splitting use are desired is because they will also be used for chopping duties, so that extra mass the thick blade provides comes in handy for chopping. Otherwise you'd need another tool added to the mix for chopping and one super steel thin baton blade. After a couple hikes you'll realize you don't use one and use the other for both and leave the unused tool back home when you SP, and the superior steel won't be the one you pack unless it's the thicker more mass blade.

Mass doesn't add more volume, because by definition mass = volume * density. Adding more volume increases mass if density remains the same, but technically adding volume while reducing density could decrease mass. So, adding mass will not always add volume, if the density is increased as well. If you understand any of that, that is.

As for batoning, mass has no bearing on whether a blade is a good batoning blade or not, the only thing is geometry. It doesn't matter how much a knife weighs when you aren't swinging it, only what angle the grind is at. The fatter the blade's shoulders are, the better of a splitter it will be, but the harder it will be to initially drive into the log. Once the wood gets past the shoulder of the main grind, it's really more an issue of thickness than anything else.

A full-flat ground 0.25in blade won't baton as well as a 0.18in saber ground blade, simply because the top edge of the main grind is so much higher on the FFG blade that the angle the wood gets split apart at is more acute than the saber ground blade. Hence, it's really more about grind than thickness unless the thickness is really over-the-top.

 

[trevitrace]

Uh-oh, Boris, better set him straight, this indolence shall not stand.

 

[Boris74]

Mass doesn't add more volume, because by definition mass = volume * density. Adding more volume increases mass if density remains the same

We're talking steel. Not titanium vs steel or steel vs tungsten. A pinch of this and that difference in different steels won't make enough of any change to density. So if you want thicker, and thicker will always baton better, you get more mass, it's unavoidable unless you more than double the length to keep it thin and get it heavier and that adds in its own problems. Thin and long will never be as tough as shorter and fatter. That mass won't go to waste, just so happens to make it a great chopper now. What good does a thin light great batoning blade do for you if its so light you need to pack a chopping tool? Not much good for me.

 

[KingMC]

We're talking steel. Not titanium vs steel or steel vs tungsten. A pinch of this and that difference in different steels won't make enough of any change to density. So if you want thicker, and thicker will always baton better, you get more mass, it's unavoidable unless you more than double the length to keep it thin and get it heavier and that adds in its own problems. Thin and long will never be as tough as shorter and fatter. That mass won't go to waste, just so happens to make it a great chopper now. What good does a thin light great batoning blade do for you if its so light you need to pack a chopping tool? Not much good for me.

Ok, so how about the BK2 vs. the BK9: ones got a 5.25in blade that's 0.25in thick, while the other has a 9in blade but it's only 0.18in thick. Both have approx. the same mass, so which batons better? What you're saying is thickness is most important in batoning, and The shorter, fatter BK2 will always out-baton the thinner, lighter BK9. So what happens when you need to baton through more than 4in of wood, wouldn't he BK2 suffer from its short length while the BK9 have no issues at all, even though it's thinner?

Thick + short != best batoning knife, sure it's better With the easy batoning jobs like sub-4in pieces, but a longer blade is a whole lot more useful even if it is a thinner blade simply because it's length gives it more reach and thus it can baton bigger, thicker logs.

Both of them are beastly knives, I own both now, but I'd pick the BK9 first.

 

[Boris74]

Ok, so how about the BK2 vs. the BK9: ones got a 5.25in blade that's 0.25in thick, while the other has a 9in blade but it's only 0.18in thick. Both have approx. the same mass, so which batons better? What you're saying is thickness is most important in batoning, and The shorter, fatter BK2 will always out-baton the thinner, lighter BK9. So what happens when you need to baton through more than 4in of wood, wouldn't he BK2 suffer from its short length while the BK9 have no issues at all, even though it's thinner?

Thick + short != best batoning knife, sure it's better With the easy batoning jobs like sub-4in pieces, but a longer blade is a whole lot more useful even if it is a thinner blade simply because it's length gives it more reach and thus it can baton bigger, thicker logs.

Both of them are beastly knives, I own both now, but I'd pick the BK9 first.

Wedges, that I made with my less than 4" blade Falcon. Did exactly that on my last multi day multi night hike trip couple weeks ago. If I am in a hurry I will remove the knife of a brand we do not mention here from the pack and use it.

 

[KingMC]

Wedges, that I made with my less than 4" blade Falcon. Did exactly that on my last multi day multi night hike trip couple weeks ago. If I am in a hurry I will remove the knife of a brand we do not mention here from the pack and use it.

But you just said that thicker and shorter is always better, now you're saying that you need WEDGES to actually baton with short blades? that's not batoning, that's using wedges, two different things entirely.

Batoning is the act of splitting wood using your knife by pounding on it with another piece of wood. Using wedges makes it no longer count as batoning, as the knife is only starting the incision while the wedges are actually doing the splitting.

 

[Boris74]

But you just said that thicker and shorter is always better, now you're saying that you need WEDGES to actually baton with short blades? that's not batoning, that's using wedges, two different things entirely.

Batoning is the act of splitting wood using your knife by pounding on it with another piece of wood. Using wedges makes it no longer count as batoning, as the knife is only starting the incision while the wedges are actually doing the splitting.

Nice try.

Maybe read what I've already posted. I've made it very clear here before you discovered me I do 90%+ of my baton work with a sub 4" blade. Guess what! It's .26" thick and it's short. Well gee whilikers would ya look at that. I actually do use a short fat blade for most my baton work. Now here's the kicker. While doing multi night hikes.

Maybe I should carry an axe?