Batoning

I agree on many points (improvising with tools, things can get lost, id rather help in a disaster than just bail out, etc) but disagree on others.

How is a tool that is designed to do something, the wrong tool for that same something? I feel like there is a pretty large difference between knives "designed" for batoning and those that are not. I feel it is improper to baton with a folder, and any thin bladed/stick tanged/too high of rc fixed blade. But on a knife designed for it, sure. I'm just curious why its not acceptable to use it for something it was designed for.

Why is it that you think that if someone is batoning, they are doing it to test their skills as a lone survivor? As I and others have said, many of us (although likely not all) think of it as another skill/technique in our toolbelt. On your hikes you bring a hatchet, and a buck 110. If it were me, I'd take a Becker bk16 for the same "if I need fire, this is a tool I feel would be capable of providing it" for the campfire I might need, while being lighter and smaller. And if I need more wood processing power, id reach for a folding saw before I reached for a hatchet.

However if I needed to keep kindling split for the kitchen fire at a homestead, I'd use a hatchet and mass produce a weeks worth at a time.

Anyway, I guess I somehow find myself in the middle of this discussion. I think batoning rounds for the cabin is just as silly of an idea as carrying a full sized axe on day hikes in the summertime.

And finally, I need to try out a pencil sharpener for making tinder, that's a great idea :). It does seem it would be slower, on the other hand, it's idiot proof which can be a great positive if you're not mentally all the way there for whatever reason.
 
Boris74 said:
My last multi nighter I took 27 pounds. In that weight was three knives and my Glock with three extra loaded mags. We could have stayed out at least 3 more days but had other obligations to return to. I tend to fabricate what I need rather than pack it. Like water filter and fire starter, don't even pack matches or a lighter.

If I would have packed as much weight as you do then the 10 miles (on gps, counted in weight carried) I would have burnt just over 200 more calories. Yes I know calories burned by weight for distance. I also know 2mph burns as much as 4mph and going 3mph saves 8 calories per mile over 2 and 4mph. So I watch the GPS and keep the pace at 3mph. It's not about how many calories you pack or consume, it's how you burn them. I doubt I'm burning 80 calories more splitting with a knife over the easier axe or hatchet that I saved by going at the most calorie efficient pace. Not to mention I saved 200 calories in 10 miles packing as light as I can.

That's just how I roll though. Every light weigh hiker knows this stuff.
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No fire gear? How do you light your fatwood?
 
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Thomas Linton said:
...So who teaches batoning?

• Ray Mears - page23 of 'Bushcraft - An Inspirational Guide to Surviving the Wilderness'
• Chris Janowsky (R.I.P.)
• Mors Kochanski https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=uvlmsH0IFT4 at about 4:50 mins
• Ron Hood (R.I.P.)
• Les Stroud (as per his new book)
• Jeff Randall (as per page 77, November 2000, Tactical Knives
• George Jasper - Six ways in & 12 ways out (USRSOG page 110)
• Cody Lundin (as per page 175 of 98.6)
• Christopher Nyerges

Want a list of the makers who say batoning is part of what their knives are built to do? I can do that.
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I think what's getting lost in all the fuss-and-feathers is that batoning is a technique people going into the woods should know how to do without damaging the knife — and then they should avoid getting into situations where batoning becomes necessary.

A large part of that is looking ahead to what a given trip will likely involve; this is just ordinary planning. You bring gear that will see you through without having to use tools in ways that approach their perfomance envelope limits — or exceed them, as the OP in the "KABAR failure" thread discovered.

Anything goes in an emergency. But if a wood fire is part of the trip plan from the outset, bring a hatchet or a folding saw.
 
In the end, people will do what they want to do with their items and if they get results, they will continue to baton. Personally, I see some value in battoning, to a certain point. Battoning a log 6 inches in diameter seems extreme but to each his own.
 
B34NS said:
an advertisement for a sub par chopping knife?
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Just showing all the fraidy cats a cheap knife can handle it, so them big name pieces held as collectors that cost much more should in theory be able to do the same. Not hard to understand if the bottom of the barrel can handle it then just about anything can.
 
Boris74 said:
Just showing all the fraidy cats a cheap knife can handle it, so them big name pieces held as collectors that cost much more should in theory be able to do the same. Not hard to understand if the bottom of the barrel can handle it then just about anything can.
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I can agree with that, I like Thomas poniting out the butter knife too. All too easy for knife makers and marketers to distort some into thinking only a certain "class" aka the knife they are selling will perform a given technique based on simple physics. Although I would have rather watched some older Schrade sharpfinger breaking down a whitetail. Jus' sayin'. Perhaps the best use of "Different strokes for different follks".
 
to look at thing from another angle, why use a knife to baton? if one is in a survival situation why risk your most important tool? I like this video were Mors Kochanski show how to do it with out a knife. I like that by using this technique one is able to split large logs with a small knife with out endangering the blade.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,3463

if one has to baton it has a lot to do with how the knife is use, one could use a butter knife a kitchen knife a blade as thin as 1/16" of an inch as long as they use proper technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmGLfn2crJg

As an out doors men I some times wonder at all the things people baton. If I am in a survival situation I have found little need for battening large logs after all if there are large logs around then there should be correspondingly larger number of small logs, sticks and branches. If I am going on a long hunt or to build a shelter I take saws, hatchets, axes, and even chisels and bit drivers (hand drill) depending on what I am building. I agree that the skill has a place but it seem to be one that people are now inventing reason to use. I under stand this is a batoning thread but as a maker I am curios which would y'all view as a better trait for a knife to be belt for to cut well or baton well.
 
dogwood dan said:
to look at thing from another angle, why use a knife to baton? if one is in a survival situation why risk your most important tool? I like this video were Mors Kochanski show how to do it with out a knife. I like that by using this technique one is able to split large logs with a small knife with out endangering the blade.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,3463

if one has to baton it has a lot to do with how the knife is use, one could use a butter knife a kitchen knife a blade as thin as 1/16" of an inch as long as they use proper technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmGLfn2crJg

As an out doors men I some times wonder at all the things people baton. If I am in a survival situation I have found little need for battening large logs after all if there are large logs around then there should be correspondingly larger number of small logs, sticks and branches. If I am going on a long hunt or to build a shelter I take saws, hatchets, axes, and even chisels and bit drivers (hand drill) depending on what I am building. I agree that the skill has a place but it seem to be one that people are now inventing reason to use. I under stand this is a batoning thread but as a maker I am curios which would y'all view as a better trait for a knife to be belt for to cut well or baton well.
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a knife can be both tough enough to baton and nimble enough to do fine tasks. I've got a few.
 
I will agree with some that batonning as a skill gets overplayed, especially on YouTube.
What irks me is those who jump down other's throats with the "Use an axe!" mantra every time someone asks for a knife that is suitable for batonning.

I also get annoyed though with people who break their knife bashing it through a log and then want a replacement...unless the manufacturer specifically says they're okay with that.
 
stabman said:
I will agree with some that batonning as a skill gets overplayed, especially on YouTube.
What irks me is those who jump down other's throats with the "Use an axe!" mantra every time someone asks for a knife that is suitable for batonning.

I also get annoyed though with people who break their knife bashing it through a log and then want a replacement...unless the manufacturer specifically says they're okay with that.
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There was that picture (video?) of one guy swinging a 6-8 foot x 4" log as a baton with another goof holding the knife. :eek:
 
dogwood dan said:
to look at thing from another angle, why use a knife to baton? if one is in a survival situation why risk your most important tool? I like this video were Mors Kochanski show how to do it with out a knife. I like that by using this technique one is able to split large logs with a small knife with out endangering the blade.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,3463

if one has to baton it has a lot to do with how the knife is use, one could use a butter knife a kitchen knife a blade as thin as 1/16" of an inch as long as they use proper technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmGLfn2crJg

As an out doors men I some times wonder at all the things people baton. If I am in a survival situation I have found little need for battening large logs after all if there are large logs around then there should be correspondingly larger number of small logs, sticks and branches. If I am going on a long hunt or to build a shelter I take saws, hatchets, axes, and even chisels and bit drivers (hand drill) depending on what I am building. I agree that the skill has a place but it seem to be one that people are now inventing reason to use. I under stand this is a batoning thread but as a maker I am curios which would y'all view as a better trait for a knife to be belt for to cut well or baton well.
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Well said. He who doesn't prepare for the woods, has prepared their suffering.

Slicing from 5,500 years ago. They did in fact use a baton, but to flake off bits of the knife edge to bring the edge back.

HzWPphil.jpg


This is from pre-dynastic egypt, around 2949 B.C.

EFTvarrl.jpg


I'm merely one person in a long trade of culinary professionals, so it's fun to talk about the history of modern tool usage. My livelihood has depended on it. It's just silly hearing someone say "it's valid, it's been done for centuries" Prove it. :D

As a chef we've batonned through whole animals, giant root veggies, and the occasional sea crustacean, we always used the beater vitorinox knives for those, not our personal knives of course.
 
B34NS said:
Great point, Native Americans thrived here for well over 10,000 years without having to baton with a knife, oh yea, they didn't even have knives, but what do they know.
.
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9d326854fc75f03ed05f35255a039d2c.jpg


5,000-10,000 year old flint knife native american style
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dogwood dan said:
to look at thing from another angle, why use a knife to baton? if one is in a survival situation why risk your most important tool? I like this video were Mors Kochanski show how to do it with out a knife. I like that by using this technique one is able to split large logs with a small knife with out endangering the blade.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,3463

if one has to baton it has a lot to do with how the knife is use, one could use a butter knife a kitchen knife a blade as thin as 1/16" of an inch as long as they use proper technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmGLfn2crJg

As an out doors men I some times wonder at all the things people baton. If I am in a survival situation I have found little need for battening large logs after all if there are large logs around then there should be correspondingly larger number of small logs, sticks and branches. If I am going on a long hunt or to build a shelter I take saws, hatchets, axes, and even chisels and bit drivers (hand drill) depending on what I am building. I agree that the skill has a place but it seem to be one that people are now inventing reason to use. I under stand this is a batoning thread but as a maker I am curios which would y'all view as a better trait for a knife to be belt for to cut well or baton well.
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First off, I loved that video. I've used that technique only a few times so far, and I did it only using one or two wedges, but it worked great. Thanks for posting that :).

I think my main response to the "why" is primarily about size. In that video Mors shows how to split a big round with a set of wedges, but even he batons his knife to make the wedges. And speaking for myself, when I think of "batoning" I am thinking of 2-4inch thick branches that can be split down for dry kindling for a campfire for the evening, and not large rounds like that (which I'd use at the winter cabin).

And for those smaller 2-4inch branches, it is easier to take the knife and use it directly to split the wood, instead of making wedges for something so small. But again, I'm not opposed to making wedges, but I feel that any half decent knife (that was designed to be used like that) should have no problem with wood that size, particularly if you select pieces with good grain directions (straight grained wood is best).

I completely agree. If I had to go on a long outing, I'll be bringing saws, axes, or other things if real amounts of "wood processing" are required. Most of my trips don't need major wood processing, so I don't typically carry them (unless I'm car camping :)).

And as a consumer, I feel that I don't want things to be crazy overly built anymore (there was a time I wanted .25in thick knives for everything... no more). I do however, want the option to split things (particularly on the larger blades that tend to lend themselves to this type of work), at least if the knife is being billed as a "general outdoors knife". For other uses I have adjusted expectations (slicers probably wouldn't be expected to withstand ANY batoning, as part of their design).

To put it another way, I would be disappointed in a knife designed as a belt/general outdoors knife that couldn't handle splitting 2-3in wood at the smallest, that way if I got lost with that on my belt as my ONLY tool, I know I could still get smaller wood down to size to start a fire (if needed), and then start just throwing in the large pieces I wouldn't be able to process with that tool. And again, personally speaking, that's one of the more interesting things about tougher "super" steels like cpm-3v. The ability to keep a knifes toughness high enough to withstand this type of use, while becoming thinner and better at slicing.

So, I guess my answer is that I want my cake, and want to eat it too :).
 
Cobalt said:
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Guess I should have been more specific. " I was referring to edge tools used by natives in ways that we would colloquially apply the term "knife". Given that they didn't have modern steels being discussed in this thread.

Although your "archeological evidence" above from a "collector" that makes profit disturbing Native North American cultural heritage and selling it on his site for profit is a little unsettling. I certainly wouldn't call it credible.
 
ocnLogan said:
First off, I loved that video. I've used that technique only a few times so far, and I did it only using one or two wedges, but it worked great. Thanks for posting that :).

I think my main response to the "why" is primarily about size. In that video Mors shows how to split a big round with a set of wedges, but even he batons his knife to make the wedges. And speaking for myself, when I think of "batoning" I am thinking of 2-4inch thick branches that can be split down for dry kindling for a campfire for the evening, and not large rounds like that (which I'd use at the winter cabin).

And for those smaller 2-4inch branches, it is easier to take the knife and use it directly to split the wood, instead of making wedges for something so small. But again, I'm not opposed to making wedges, but I feel that any half decent knife (that was designed to be used like that) should have no problem with wood that size, particularly if you select pieces with good grain directions (straight grained wood is best).

I completely agree. If I had to go on a long outing, I'll be bringing saws, axes, or other things if real amounts of "wood processing" are required. Most of my trips don't need major wood processing, so I don't typically carry them (unless I'm car camping :)).

And as a consumer, I feel that I don't want things to be crazy overly built anymore (there was a time I wanted .25in thick knives for everything... no more). I do however, want the option to split things (particularly on the larger blades that tend to lend themselves to this type of work), at least if the knife is being billed as a "general outdoors knife". For other uses I have adjusted expectations (slicers probably wouldn't be expected to withstand ANY batoning, as part of their design).

To put it another way, I would be disappointed in a knife designed as a belt/general outdoors knife that couldn't handle splitting 2-3in wood at the smallest, that way if I got lost with that on my belt as my ONLY tool, I know I could still get smaller wood down to size to start a fire (if needed), and then start just throwing in the large pieces I wouldn't be able to process with that tool. And again, personally speaking, that's one of the more interesting things about tougher "super" steels like cpm-3v. The ability to keep a knifes toughness high enough to withstand this type of use, while becoming thinner and better at slicing.

So, I guess my answer is that I want my cake, and want to eat it too :).
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That last little bit about thinner and being just as strong being able to slice. Any task requiring slicing in a survival, woodscrafting and the likes situation will not be master chef grade slicing. My thickest of knives can do the thinnest of slicing, you've seen it. I fully convexed my full flat grind falcon and I can lay it on the surface of anything and make extremely thin slices of anything after batoning enough wood to burn several hours. It's extremely easy to maintain in the field too with improvised methods, easier than 1095 and the edge lasts as long. Thinning out a blade too much will have a constant negative, mass. You shed mass you will need to do other tasks. So thin may be as tough in another steel but you just paid Peter by robbing Paul. Only thing I see a tougher steel being better in is a puukko or small blade where mass is not a characteristic needed to do work it's intended to. At that point all you get is more toughness, it still won't do what the lesser steel can't. You might also make a requirement to carry extra tools to maintain it, robbing Peter to a pay Paul this time there will always be a trade off. If I got a large blade 3V chopper baton duty blade I would not get a thinner one, the mass is needed to do that job, a carbon steel blade will last two days doing heavy work so why put a better steel in a large chopping splitting blade? You still need that mass.

I see what your getting at, I just see it different. Put the 3V in a smaller blade and make it tougher for its already designed thickness. I don't see it working the other way around thinning out a large blade needed for brute force.
 
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