Battle of the Navy Seals : Part I

[matthew rapaport]

If nothing else, Cliff reminds us how much work is involved in extensive testing. Personally, I like Cliff's reviews. I like his approach to simulating various cutting chores, and his writing style. Sure his numbers might look considerably different if the knives being tested were in some other hands, but a performance continuum built up out of all the knives Cliff has tested is never-the-less generalizable to all of that population that cuts like or at least similar to Cliff. Indeed, as time goes on, Cliff's own physical strength grows as does his blade control and his results tend more and more to be the results that an "expert" would get from any given blade. Thus those of us who are actually growing in cutting skill will tend to become more and more like Cliff! As a result, Cliff's results become more pertinent as time goes on!

 

[Razorzedge000]

Please forgive a reply from an unknowledgeable
an outside observer as of yet I guess, but I only
have a few points and a question or two. Was the
knife tested against the SOG in this review act-
ually adopted by the SEALS as thier day in and
out usage blade. SOG claims thiers was. And not
wanting to move into false advertisement;I feel
most certianly it was. PLease correct me on this
I am here to learn and interact.

1)If the US NAVY SEALS; one of the most;if not the
most elite fighting force on this planet have adop-
ted a specific blade for thier issue use; I would
expect that knife to be at least as good as a KBar
for gods sake, no disrespect intended. Not many of
us here on this forum experience an "operational
tempo":barf: like they do. So that means that the
knife is a collector for militaria purposes(its
only validity in that case being it is SEALS issue)
and SUPERKNIFE tests dont make a difference anyway;
I got KBAR CAUSE ITS A KBAR and guys spilled thier
guts defending my freedom with the thing

2)Its a user (ie: camp;hike;fish;kitchen;hunt etc)
Both these knives will do that. I got those too.
and thats SUPERKNIFE test enuf. I like anybodys
input as far as scientific goes; and its all a
grain of salt here (gumbo sure tastes better
with salt than without but gumbo isnt gumbo w/o
okra that much I do know) "okra" is the facts
here brethren.
Fact is if u got the bucks;
u gotta have it;momma wont get mad if you
do;buy the more expensive blade. If its the
other way around (youd rather momma stab u
with the SEALS BLADE and its cheaper) buy
the sonofabuscuiteater!!) nuff said there!!

 

[Cougar Allen]

Welcome to Bladeforums!

The SEALs have used a large variety of knives, quite a number of them with varying degrees of official endorsement and/or issue. There is at least one SEAL on the knife forums and he's just as confused about it as the collectors -- he knows what he and his buddies use, but he isn't so sure just how official each of those knives is. All I can say about it is both these knives have a legitimate claim to being SEAL knives and have been used (and are being used) by SEALs. That question belongs on another forum, anyway; this is the reviews and testing forum....

Both are at least as good as the USMC fighting/utility knife commonly (though not very accurately) identified with the former KA-BAR company -- they ought to be; they both cost considerably more.

Both are more than adequate users.

Some of us are interested in superior performance, for a variety of reasons -- one of them is some of us actually need superior performance, or might need it one of these days and there's no telling just when that might be. So a lot of the testing on this forum is aimed at finding and developing knives that can go far beyond the kind of performance that is adequate for most of us most of the time. Some of the testing might seem a little far-out, but even if you're sure you'll never need a superknife and wouldn't take one if it was given to you, you might find the test reports interesting reading. Watch out, though -- if you read too much you might find yourself testing knives too, and that's a slippery slope ... first you get to wondering just how bad that cheap import you bought before you knew any better really is ... then you start digging through your junk drawers looking for more junk knives to test to destruction ... then you start buying knives just to see what they can do ... and then buying more and more expensive knives, and spending more and more of your time and energy testing them ... eventually you become obsessed, normal people avoid you so you seek out the company of lunatics on the net, you lose interest in everything but testing knives, you end up spending all your time doing research in a cave in Florida or an igloo in Newfoundland....

 

[Razorzedge000]

I wasnt being short or contrary at all; I too am
interested in superior performance but sometimes
i think we get a little too nervous thanks for your
help

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Will :

Did you notice any change in durability with the reformed serrations after splitting?

After the serrations on the MPK were cleaned up after the splitting, they were stable through some rope cutting. More splitting I would expect to induce a similar level of damage , with greater deformation if any impacts coincided with ones from the previous rounds, as realigned metal is more easily deformed. After the filing to reform the serrations after the wire cutting, the patterns were much more durable. I did not actually test this, but the included angle of the teeth is much more obtuse than it was before, hence the decrease in the slicing ability of the pattern on the MPK seen on the 3/8" hemp. I'll have a look at this when I do the splitting to test the re-profiled edge. The serrations on the SOG have all been ground off. I modified them further to increase the cutting ability, but decided to get rid of them as the performance was still not high enough to warrant keeping them in face of the leverage disadvantage they induce for general work.

The handle not retaining much heat shows it has a low heat capacity.

Yes, and low conductivity as the two are closely related. This also makes the handle more comfortable to use in temperature extremes. Both completely enclosed the tang which is very positive.

I agree that skill makes a big difference in the amount of force a blade will experience. Last year I chopped the legs off a deer with my H.I. village khukuri. The edge was unaffected and it took approximately 3 chops to remove the legs except for the last one. I came kept coming in at random angle on the last leg. As a result it required around 13 blows to remove and the edge was dented in the softer zones and less so in the harder zones (barely visible).

Yes, that is exactly the kind of problem that you face when looking at durability work. Just think what conclusion someone would have reached if you had switched blades on the last leg. The difference in results could have easily be attributed to the blade and not the technique. Ideally what you want is a well known skill level scale. Thus you could say I performed XXX with a skill level of YYY and the results were ZZZ. Generating a quantifiable skill level isn't that difficult, however the force used would complicate the matter and predicting the results from one skill level to another is really difficult.

Paul :

This is still about fun, right?

Yes, which is pretty much why I do it. A lot of it bring enjoyment to otherwise what would be just work. If I clear up 100-200 small saplings that is just work. However if I switch blades every 50 or so trees then it becomes much more enjoyable as I investigate the optimal geometry and balance.

Jim :

... you might lose that cold, killer robot image

Its seasonal, I am much more relaxed and even tempered in the cold, wait until summer and the heat comes.

Matthew :

Thus those of us who are actually growing in cutting skill will tend to become more and more like Cliff!

I am sure there are a number of manufacturers who would be overjoyed to hear that.

Razorblade, concerning the MPK-Ti and its history, check out :

http://www.missionknives.com/articles/design_behind_the_mpk.html

In regards to being able to function as a knife, yes both blades can cut and chop, as can any knife. As a follow up to what Cougar noted, in general I want a higher performance knife similar because it makes cutting easier and safer. If you have to cut up one piece of rope will it make a difference if one blade takes ~80 lbs and the other ~50, probably not, but why make life more difficult. If you buy a shovel do you pick the one that takes works twice as fast as another or just go with either as both can move snow around? price comes into play of course, you buy the best you can.

From a survial / emergency perspective the gain in performance is much more valuable. If you are in a survial situation, using a lower perfoming knife is directly similar to taking a pill which causes a serious reduction in your strength and endurance. Fatigue will really amplify the effects as well. For example after spending 4 hours clearing out some wood and I want to get a small fire going to boil up some coffee and heat a pan of beans, then the higher cutting ability of the MPK will really be appreciated. The serrations turn some hemp into a pile of tinder really quickly, and the plain edge generates a pile of shavings with ease. Yes I could do the same with the SOG, but it will take more effort, more time and in general not be nearly as enjoyable.

Besides just determining which knife is "better", my primary goal it to understand where the performance comes from. This allows the elimination of problems as some aspects are easily fixed such as the edge profile, while some of them can't like balance, mass or length. This allows you to insure that when you chose a knife it doesn't come with a problems that you can't fix. The general mind set of leaving a knife as NIB really needs to be changed. This is fine if your knives are $5, but when you are buying $100+ knives you really want to take a serious look at the blade and see if it can't be altered to better suit your needs and skill level.

-Cliff

 

[matthew rapaport]

All I can say about it is both these knives have a legitimate claim to being SEAL knives and have been used (and are being used) by SEALs.

Cougar... Only the past tense would be necessary I think. That is, it is sufficient for them to <i>have been</i>, at one time, used by SEALs. There are other problems with such knives as collectables go, that being that the QC of the final result may have been different in those batches actually going to SEALs as the result of a military purchase order. Indeed even the steel may have been different (unless the manufacturer actually makes the claim that it is not), not to mention markings, etc. The topic is interesting, but you're right. It belongs somewhere else.

The general mind set of leaving a knife as NIB really needs to be changed.

I love this. Certainly from a "user perspective" this is the case. The collectable market will have to go where it will, and be disconnected from the knife's real potential as a tool at least insofar as those correctable characteristics are concerned.

 

[Razorzedge000]

Cliff;

For alot of collectors; NIB is the way it has to
go. Now Im not arguing with that; just saying that
I buy a knife for 2 reasons:
1)collector 2)user or
3)When all else fails make the damn thing!!

Im sure that as I get further on down the road
option 3 will revert to option 1

If the knife is to be used I have ability to alter
Factory Edge specs if I see fit (and dont we all)
Some of the things are ground too damn thick (ie
CSTM) unless you do; at a knife users point of
view.

If it is NIB for a collector resale/trade situation
I leave it. You get more value that way. Problem I keep
runnin into is that more and more of my blades are falling
into the "collector/user" grey area so many of
us came to be familiar with at one time or another!!
Thats when I got real interested in performance; Watched
a few Cold Steel Videos; (thaught;laughed;thaught
some more;gotbacked up)regrouped; Checked out
Bladeforums;Met blacksmith and toolmaker with 40
yrs experience....any of this sound familiar???

What Im figuring out now is that people are more
interested on a production level in making the $
They usually dont give a damn about blade quality.
I Guess thats why they call it production in the
first place huh?? I know im an "orange belt" on
the scene here and I figure if guys like you do
the torture testing I dont have to. Saves me $. Got
a four year old. $ comes in handy.

Alot of people want to criticize: its thier right
and we've all got somethin to learn. At least when
you test there is some sort of mathematical basis
not just cutting free hanging manilia rope in a single
pass (Hey lynn old friend how many times u sharpen de
TrailMasta between takes mon?) Thanks again Razor

 

[W.T. Beck]

This isn't going to help me gid rid of the SOG Seal Pup I bought before I had read up on knives. Nevertheless I like Mr. Stamp's reviews very much.

 

[matthew rapaport]

This isn't going to help me gid rid of the SOG Seal Pup I bought before I had read up on knives. Nevertheless I like Mr. Stamp's reviews very much.

Welcome to the club! I have a dozen knives of various kinds that wouldn't cut it based on what I know today. I do use them as beaters in every-day dirty and hard chores. Its fun to do that, and ironically, many of them are still taking a pounding after years of such abuse. Just the other day a handle separated from a full-length stick tang on a knife I use to break up 2-3" thick blocks of wood into kindling sticks by pounding it through (some of these blocks are 18" long) with a log! Nothing suprising about that until you know I've been pounding that particular knife making fires two or three times a week (four to five in the spring and summer) for two solid years! That's a lot of beating for a 6" "survival knife" that probably costs less than $25 even today! Notice the knife is still intact! I only have to glue the handle back on and maybe I'll get another two years out of it?

 

[W.T. Beck]

Excuse my mispelling of "get" as in get rid of that Seal Pup. Yes, reading Bladeforums does change one's perspective on what constitutes a good as well as what constitutes an expensive knive. When I first starting buying knives I did not really want to spend over $300 for several of them. Just last week I spent over $300 for one knife, a Randall Model 14, and I think those are a good value in comparision to alot of the customs I see.

 

[Razorzedge000]

Randall will probably be my next "up-scale"
purchase. All I hear about them is rave reviews.
I just don't like the idea of waiting 4 yrs. for
the knife or paying 3 times what Randall wants
for it to get it sooner. All I hear from every
body is that people USE Randalls everyday and they
never wear out we'll see

 

[larry harley]

if i was selling beach frontage here in tn
i,d get cliffie to do it for me
hes goood!!!!!!!
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com

 

[Razorzedge000]

All of us could (and probably are)working for the
every one of the Bladesmiths/KnifeMakers and
knife production companies who even think
about READING this Forum. Without the Customer
who's gonna buy your knife??

 

[W.T. Beck]

Hello razorblade00,

Would you happen to live anywhere near Cary, NC? There is a store there, Beck's Cutlery, which had a website and advertises a good selection of Randall's. While retail stores do charge more than ordering directly from Randall, you should be able to find the knives in stores for not more than $50 over the direct price. Last week I paid $310 for a Randall Model 14 with single finger grove micarta handle, and saw a Model 1 7 inch blade in stainless for the same price. This was at a gunshop in Atlanta. Considering that $300 or so is the starting price for any premium large knife, I didn't think I paid too much. It was certainly worth the extra price to me to avoid the 2+ year wait.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Hey, if a knife is outperformed in a comparison test by another knife that costs twice as much, that doesn't necessarily mean the first knife is worthless, or that the posting of the test report has suddenly made it unsalable, either. Nobody really thought SOG made the best knives in the world regardless of expense, did you?

Besides, there are matters of individual preference -- if you did a comparison test yourself you might find the SOG outperforms the Mission in only one way, but that's the thing that matters the most to you personally even though it's something Cliff never thought of testing because it doesn't matter at all to him. Handles in particular are very much a matter of individual preference.

Tests like this are extremely valuable, but if it were condensed to "The Mission rulez -- the SOG sux" it would lose most of its value. That's why Cliff posts such long reports....

 

[W.T. Beck]

Personally I would be more interested in reading comparisons of similarly priced knives, since this would be more useful in determining which knives are best in their price range. Still, we do need to know what the extra money is buying us when we get an expensive knife. Alot of folks (like myself one year ago) really wouldn't know if SOG makes the very best knives at any price. Bladeforum members represent only a tiny fraction of the world's knife buyers, and many new Bladeforum members have a whole lot to learn.

 

[Danny Warlick]

To All,

I have read a few of Cliff's reviews and it just seems to me that he dosent like SOG knives at all. AND HE LOVES TO BREAK THINGS! I dont test knives, but I do carry them and I use them. I have also collected them since I was 15. I work in a very moutainous and rural county in western N.C. as a Deputy Sheriff and SWAT Scout Sniper. I have to have a good, reliable blade by my side al the time. I have carried a SOG SEAL for over two years now on SWAT and in my patrol car and I must say I have had no finer weapon or cutting tool! I have cut, hammered, pryed, dug holes and just about anything else you can think of with it and the knife is still going! ALSO my hobby is scuba diving and I've carried it from N.C. to the Florida Keys diving. No problems there eather. Like I said, I dont test knives and I'm no knife expert, I collect and use them. BUT for those interisted, the SOG SEAL is an awsome and reliable knife in REAL LIFE situations.


P.S. I have just bought a SOG Recondo and cant wait to take it in the field.

 

[Razorzedge000]

Hats off to captain Warlick; I also live in the
mountains in WNC.My life was saved by a form-
er Asheville PD named Joe Palmer. He was on his
way to lunch seen that we were involved in an
accident; and pulled myself and a friend to
safety after the vehicle we were in caught
afire. Both of us were handicapped to begin with
so getting out was impossible.
I appreciated the Randall reference;looking into
several recources before I make a decision. I spoke
with a Randall Knives Rep who told me all instock
items are reserved for US armed Forces at this time;
because of the war in Afganistan (did I spell that
right?? do I really care? ). She said they would
be glad to place a "Custom order" if I wanted
something different than a stock knife. Model
14 8 in. was what I had in mind.

 

[OwenM]

Off-topic, but some of you guys mentioned looking for Randalls.
I make a yearly trip with the family to Gatlinburg.
Smoky Mountain Knife Works in Sevierville, TN, and The Acorn in Gatlingburg always have a selection of Randall knives on hand at what I assume are "standard" prices. The Acorn has had some sitting in a display for years that noone ever seems to buy.
SMKW 1(865)453-5871
Acorn 1(865)436-5073

 

[Razorzedge000]

I live about 80 mi from Acorn; my family and I mini-
vacation there all the time....

But theres a reason the Randalls sit there lonely..
Acorn usually wants more than Randall for the same
blade and not much variety. I do alot of business w/
SMKW though. They lack a little in product knowledge...