Battle of the Navy Seals : Part I

[W.T. Beck]

Hello razorblade00,

I don't think you are going to find any Randall's in a retail store which are priced the same as Randall order prices. The best you can do is find one that isn't more than $40-$50 above the Randall price.
The prices still aren't out of line with other premium knive brands. The lowest internet price I have seen for a Chris Reeve's Project I is $299, for example. I paid $310 for a Randall Model 14, which I like alot better, so I don't think the knife was over-priced.

 

[Danny Warlick]

I live pretty close to razorblade00, I think. My wife and I go to Gatlinburg alot. We have went 3 times since November and I had to go to both Smokey Mountain Knife Works and the Acorn every time. And buy a knife of course!!) It wouldnt be a complete trip without them! I hate to admit it but I've never noticed the Randall knives at the Acorn. I'll have to look harder next time. I also missed the EK knives at SMKW this time, a friend said they had moved alot around and he was right. I really like SOME of the people at SMKW though. The fellow downstairs that sharpens knives tought me alot one afternoon a few years ago and now I have all my SWAT buddies begging me to put an edge on their steel. If anyone is going dont leave those stores out!!

P.S. to Razorblade00,
I live in Rutherford County. Very close to Asheville. My dad gave me my first "big blade" knife on a camping trip to Mt. Mitchell when I was 15. A Buckmaster!! I still have that knife in near mint condition. Been hooked ever since!

 

[DBH]

Cliff, thank you for the information. I thoroughly enjoy your knife tests and look forward to the next one even if I have no interest in the knife you are testing. I think the testing is awesome.

So whats next?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Razorblade00 :

For alot of collectors; NIB is the way it has to go.

Yes, if you want to resell the blade then you should realize that pretty much any modification that you make to the knife is going to lower its resale point.

W.T.Beck :

Personally I would be more interested in reading comparisons of similarly priced knives, since this would be more useful in determining which knives are best in their price range.

The above two knives were tested pretty much directly against each other as both as advertised as "Seal knives", and thus are in direct competition with each other. In fact the reason that I started that format was on a whim after someone asked me if the SOG SEAL was the only "SEAL" knife. I was trying to find a Ka-Bar for comparison at the same time, an ATAK was out of the question for obvious reasons. In the individual reviews of the SOG SEAL 2000 and MPK-Ti (which will be posted up after the re-profiling work is done), you will find reference information comparing the performance of each to more than just each other and I'll comment at the end how they compare to the Strider WB which is the other "SEAL" knife I have used.

Danny :

HE LOVES TO BREAK THINGS!

The amusing part about this to me is that the amount of work I do that focuses on just damaging blades is a very small component of the total work I do. For example :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181617

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179373

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179702

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178186

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1446725

are some of the recent threads I started that are in regards to cutting ability and edge retention, with durability being only a minor side issue. In fact only one of the recent threads I started was mainly about durability :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177876

That I did on a whim after working with the blade and finding it unsuitable for chopping and being curious as could I get the level of flex that Fowler has noted is high performance. As well if you just check out my posts you will find that the vast majority are concerning sharpening, edge retention and cutting ability.

Yet, the durability testing is the part that is often focused on, to some people by such an extent that it is all they see and they project the perspective that all I do is mangle knives, which is amusing. It is just rare to see that kind of work done and thus it stands out. When I talk to makers who do a lot of extreme testing they never have this response, as they have seen many of their blades broken and mangled first hand. The discussions tend to focus on suggested changes, other blade steels etc. .

The extreme negative response that such testing often generates just reflects the emotional attachments that some people tend to make to knives. The knives that are donated by makers/manufacturer get the whole spectrum of use, including abuse, so as to present the complete picture, or at least as complete as one as I can provide. Most who donate the blades actually request such extreme work done, the last custom maker I discussed this with for example noted that I should "tear up" the blade after I was finished the cutting work. This was in respect to a very slim hunting/utility knife. He was just interested in where it would break down if it was abused, and since it was a test knife, he had wrote it off profit wise anyway. Knives loaned to me by friends will generally just be used to look at particular aspects of performance, some don't want extreme work done, some do. Knives that I buy get various degrees of abuse depending on how well they perform in other areas.

DBH, thanks. First off I have to finish up working with the MPK-TI and SOG SEAL with the new profiles, once this is done I'll finish off the review of the MPK-A2 and the Mission MPU and then round out the review of the TAC-11. Hopefully by then I'll have one of the couple of 10" custom bowies I have ordered for this year. I also have some new axes and machetes/bolos I am working with, and I have been doing a lot of edge retention work on hemp with a few blades of different alloys and geometries to explore their effects. I am also looking at the edge retention of a blade after steeling as well as other things concerning how geometry effect edge retention and cutting ability.

-Cliff

 

[Firebat]

ROTFLMAO!

You guys are too much! This has been so worth the gold membership fee.

I think Cliff is a pretty good guy who likes knives a whole bunch, and likes posting what he's done with them even more. And that's cool.

Yet I personally find little significance in a flurry of numbers that would never actually affect my decision to buy any knife. I'm much too simple for that sort of thing- if I like it, I'll buy it. C'mon- is there anyone out there that after having read that thought more or less of either model? Enough to sway a decision to purchase or even regret a purchase? By the time I'm done reading stuff like that, I don't even care anymore. I take knives seriously, but not *that* seriously.

And even though Cliff stated that price versus "performance" isn't regarded because it's not a linear relationship- it simply cannot be ignored. Real people have real budgets, and that non-linear relationship is *exactly* what the manufacturers and the majority of consumers themselves would cite to defend their product of choice's meager 71% performance ratio.

Firebat, enjoying his popcorn...

 

[larry harley]

You guys are too much! This has been so worth the gold membership fee.

I think Cliff is a pretty good guy who likes knives a whole bunch, and likes posting what he's done with them even more. And that's cool.

Yet I personally find little significance in a flurry of numbers that would never actually affect my decision to buy any knife. I'm much too simple for that sort of thing- if I like it, I'll buy it. C'mon- is there anyone out there that after having read that thought more or less of either model? Enough to sway a decision to purchase or even regret a purchase? By the time I'm done reading stuff like that, I don't even care anymore. I take knives seriously, but not *that* seriously.

And even though Cliff stated that price versus "performance" isn't regarded because it's not a linear relationship- it simply cannot be ignored. Real people have real budgets, and that non-linear relationship is *exactly* what the manufacturers and the majority of consumers themselves would cite to defend their product of choice's meager 71% performance ratio.

Firebat, enjoying his popcorn...


firebat
i,m glad somebody else has a good time here too
i love it lol lol lol lol
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com

 

[matthew rapaport]

Yet, the durability testing is the part that is often focused on, to some people by such an extent that it is all they see and they project the perspective that all I do is mangle knives, which is amusing. It is just rare to see that kind of work done and thus it stands out.

That's because its the most dramatic. All of us (except the must-keep-nib collectors) personally experience how easy/difficult it is to dull/sharpen a particular knife. Even if you try to break them only occasionally, its the one thing that most of the rest of us never do. Besides, it gives Jerry Busse a chance to show off his warrenty!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Firebat :

Cliff stated that price versus "performance" isn't regarded because it's not a linear relationship- it simply cannot be ignored.

I never said it should be ignored, just that blind scaling by price leads to trivial conclusions as the cheaper knives will always dominate. In the above I could have tested alongside the other knives a $10 "440 stainless" import which would dominate if the performance was scaled by price. If I did compare a SOG to such a knife and scaled the performance by cost would it be regarded as "fair"? You can't have it both ways. The cost argument is really simple, you buy what you can afford.

In regards to meaning, if you buy knives because because of looks, not as tools, then obviously the performance is pretty meaningless. This is the main criteria I use as it is what I am interested in . If I was asking someone about the type of sandpaper to use, I would be interesting not in which they thought was the most attractive, but which one cut the fastest, and cleanest and lasted the longest. Same perspective on knives.


-Cliff

 

[shortgoth]

Cliff, I'm another person who loves your reviews and the way you do them. I made a slightly sarcastic reference you your "test to destruction" rep once, but only in good humour. I value your reviews not just for the way they're written but also for the statistical data.

Granted as an average suburbanite, I'm not going to be putting things through extremes, nor am I going to use them to make "X" hundred cuts through "X" material without touching up the edge or cutting a different material, but your reviews give a great way of extrapolating your data into the situations which the rest of us are in.

As for "price Vs Performance", It's only important really on knives that are similarly priced, esp. given that a lot of people *will* pay X amount extra to have a certain name on the blade. Just like clothes, cars, or any other material object, some people will pay whatever the designers/manufacturers demand just to have the branding.

Price v performance by pure categorisation of knife rather than by price ranges/brackets does become silly. A cheap Chinese/Pakistan made blade out of 440a will perform just as well as a custom made of 440a in an identical design, the reason customs are so much more expensive is due to factors that simply don't include the mere cost of steel, and you can't compare one to the other.

 

[Burke]

Originally posted by shortgoth
Price v performance by pure categorisation of knife rather than by price ranges/brackets does become silly. A cheap Chinese/Pakistan made blade out of 440a will perform just as well as a custom made of 440a in an identical design, the reason customs are so much more expensive is due to factors that simply don't include the mere cost of steel, and you can't compare one to the other.

I disagree here, shortgoth. If you include, under identical design, edge bevels, fit and finish, etc., there will still be a difference. The heat-treat. Many folks feel that this is one of the most important aspects of a high-performance knife, and I doubt that the quality control and equipment used to make a charming China cheapie is adequate for the precise heat-treat sequencing and temperatures required to bring out the best in a steel. Additionally, you may find a wide variety of knives in 440A, from skinners to bowies to camp knives. I would suggest that a knowledgeable custom maker would restrict the use of 440A to situations where its advantages (corrosion resistance, toughness) outweigh disadvantages (edgeholding, strength). 440A is a good steel for a dive knife, for example, but I don't think it would be the ideal choice for a wood-working knife that requires relatively extreme edge-geometry, and quite good edge-holding. Between the importance of using the right steel for the right job, and properly heat-treating that steel, I believe that identical knives from Pakistan and the knowledgeable, careful custom-maker of your choice would still behave quite differently. Not intended as a flame, and I apologize for rambling so, but I wanted to point out those few things.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

shortgoth :

I made a slightly sarcastic reference you your "test to destruction" rep once, but only in good humour.

No worries, I don't take any of that seriously, regardless of it is meant to be or not.

... your reviews give a great way of extrapolating your data into the situations which the rest of us are in.

Yes, this is a critical point. The biggest problem I see in general for people interpreting reviews (not just mine) is just looking at the specific cases and saying "well I don't do that", you have to go beyond the obvious. For example in regards of the often maligned "spine whack". People often look at that and write is off because they don't hammer with the spine of their knives. Well it isn't done to test the ability of the lock to take an impact on the spine directly, like blocking a stick (for most people anyway some test that aspect like Steve Harvey), but it simulates a variety of conditions that are experienced in everyday cutting such as stabs, torques, and rocking through difficult material.

As for heat treating, while I agree that it is important, it is not as critical as many people make it out to be. It doesn't control many of the aspects that it is often promoted to, such as cutting ability, which is fact geometry dictated. In most regards the biggest factor heat treating wise is the RC, yes there is more to it than that, but that swamps out every thing else unless the RC change is small. Heat treating also can't make up for changes in steel. You can't heat treat ATS-34 to get the corrosion resistance of even cheap 440A blades, nor can you get the impact resistance and ductility. There is truth to the importance of heat treating, but there is also a lot of hype as well.

-Cliff