Battoning

Up here in the Pacific North Wet.. Er.. West, we HAVE to baton through some 6in diameter deadfall, just to get to anything resembling dry wood.. Everything else is soaked from the constant rain. It doen't just rain for days or weeks.. It rains for MONTHS!!

There are times it's useful. Granted, an Axe would be better, however, anybody can get it done with an Axe.. I would suggest learning the harder method, so if you ever DO need it, it's another tool at your disposal.

Beside.. An Axe is a little heavy for me to carry in my SAR vest.. My Busse rides rather nicely on my thigh!
 
While I'm new to the forum, I've experience with a variety of fixed and folding knives from camping, hiking, hunting, LE, etc. From those posting in wet climates, I can see the argument supportive of batoning soaked wood to reveal its dry interior.

What is less clear to me is whether designing knives to withstand batoning (as a regular practice) produces a blade truly useful for other tasks. I've noticed that robust fixed blades (and even some folders I might with great care put to this use) have blade geometries that make them ill- or less well suited for the primary task of a knife, namely cutting and slicing. That is, beefy knives have tended to be less useful, and thus receive less use, than those striking a more happy medium between strength and a fine, cutting geometry.

In other words, do heavy knives like the Becker BK1, etc. work well as general purpose knives, or does their design niche as improvised axes, machetes, pry-bars, etc. render them less useful in all but the most dire of circumstances? I ask this in part because I gave away a Cold Steel hunter for this very reason--a variety of other knives were better suited for processing game. Now as a prybar, improvised axe, etc., it couldn't be beat by anthing else I owned. Knives ideal for survival and very heavy work seem to be truly useful only when pressed into the roles of other tools.

Thoughts?
 
Crito said:
In other words, do heavy knives like the Becker BK1, etc. work well as general purpose knives, or does their design niche as improvised axes, machetes, pry-bars, etc. render them less useful in all but the most dire of circumstances? Thoughts?
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I agree that my BK1 I think of as a replacement for my hatchet, used for chopping and splitting and batoning. It works great in that roll but I can't imagine it being used to clean a squirrel though I guess I could do it if I had nothing else but I carry other blades for that purpose.

KR
 
Crito, many have batoned with puukkos and other Scandanavian designs that you would find quite suitable for processing game. To baton is not a challenge for 2.5 mm thick blade if done properly.

Have you tried a Bark River North Star or Fox River? You might be surprised at how a 3/16" acutely-edged blade can cut.
 
Crito: the whole idea that batoning is hard on a knife is bogus. Any well made knife (fixed blade) is capable of withstanding sensible batoning. Many people baton a Mora, even though some find that it is a bit too thin, but the main failure, when batoning, seems to be in a Mora, that the blade loosens from the handle, because the tang gets pushed through the plastic.

To say this very aggressively, though I'd might open myself to attack: Any manufacturer claiming that they had to make their knife thicker than they otherwise would have in order to allow for batoning is A) either lying (effecively marketing), B) clueless, C) has been cutting corners somewhere else in the manufacturing process and tries to compensate weak or brittle steel with thickness.

Batoning folders is a completely different issue. Even strong locks are usually very limited in the amount of impact they can take. Actually, they take impact once or twice very well, but repeated impacts usually leads to deformation of the mating surfaces. But if you baton on the lock instead of the blade, most well made folders will withstand a decent amount of batoning as well.

But you are of course correct that way too many knives are marketed for "hard-use" which is supposed to explain profiles a professional lumberjack wouldn't tolerate on an axe. And to cover their behinds, batoning is then declared as "hard-use" or even abuse....and it is neither. Prying with a knife or using a knife as screwdriver is FAR more abusive to a blade than batoning.

As a reference point, I have taken a Buck 119, which is readily available and cheap and clobbered intentionally the living-hell out of simply to test it. It was completely unfazed and unharmed. And this is neither a high performance knife nor is 420HC an overly tough steel. In all fairness though it is another example of a too-thick blade and I used only wooden bats as batons and not a hammer for example. On the other hand I hit it much, much harder than would have been necessary.

Lastly, for batoning really only the spine thickness is relevant, so even if you use a bit thicker blade on knife that is to be batoned, just to be on the safe side, there is no excuse of giving the edge one of these "tactical grinds".
 
T.L.--

It's not that I think you can't baton with anything less than .5''. I EDC a Lone Wolf T2 that's 2/16" and am sure that with reasonable care and sufficient motivation, I could use this to baton smallish stuff. So I'm sure that a variety of knives, Scandinavian and otherwise, designed for hunting and possessed of a fine edge, can be used for batoning.

Rather, I'm thinking about the stoutly built, medium to large fixed blade knives people generally consider when asked: "If you could take only one knife with you into the wilderness, what would it be?" I doubt, but am open to perusasion, that knives well-suited for (read designed for) replacing hatchets, pry-bars, etc. are well-suited as general purpose knives. In other words, does their specificity as heavy use instruments make them one-trick ponies?
 
Well, again, a very personal opinion:

The point is more that those knives you are describing are "trick ponies" and not work horses: Useless for anything but to pull of stunts.


However, in order to be fair: Many of those knives actually make pretty decent blades, once they are reprofiled and that is not a new problem or one that is restricted to knives. Already a hundred years ago Kephart described that every axe or hatchet you could buy had to be severely thinned out in order to make something that resembled a useful tool.
 
I think you understand my point exactly. Are these style knives trick ponies or real work horses? My impression is that smaller, less sturdy knives are the real workers in the knife world.

And I'm not sure that re-profiling addresses the basic problem encountered with blades fashioned from thick stock--thick being defined as sufficiently robust so as to encourage batoning when not immediatly required. My hunch is that when knives are designed to replace other tools, they cease to perform well the tasks knives were designed for. In other words, such knives cease to be knives in the sense in which a knife is defined by the tasks to which it can be put efficiently.

A well made tool, being put to a task for which it is efficient, ceases to "appear" to the user and is forgotten about in the act of performing the task. My experience (and I realize this it is my own and that others will inevitably disagree) has been that for cutting, slicing, game prep., camping chores, cutting rope, nylon, clothing, seat belts, etc. a 4" or slightly less blade, flat ground from say 2/16" stock or less is ideal, folding or fixed. I prefer folders because they are, for me, easier to carry and employ quickly, but I love an excellent fixed blade in the woods as well.
 
Crito said:
A well made tool, being put to a task for which it is efficient, ceases to "appear" to the user and is forgotten about in the act of performing the task. My experience (and I realize this it is my own and that others will inevitably disagree) has been that for cutting, slicing, game prep., camping chores, cutting rope, nylon, clothing, seat belts, etc. a 4" or slightly less blade, flat ground from say 2/16" stock or less is ideal, folding or fixed. I prefer folders because they are, for me, easier to carry and employ quickly, but I love an excellent fixed blade in the woods as well.
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What you say is exactly true. A knife designed for prying and splitting is not as graceful at doing "traditional" knife chores as is a traditional knife; and vice versa. From this we learn that when in the woods one should choose one or two or three blades that best suits the environment and probable camp chores. That is, you need a smallish blade for general cutting and slicing activities. And then, depending on your environment, something stouter for chopping and/or splitting (might be a big knife, might be a hatchet, might be an axe).

If the environment is different than traditional north american hardwood or pine forests, you might need something else other than the hatchet/big knife, such as a machete for the jungle or desert. (But you'll still almost certainly want the smallish knife for general usage.)

More, if you're backpacking and you have your food and shelter already with you, then you might only need that smallish knife.

I don't believe there's any such thing as the perfect all-around knife. I also don't think there's such a thing as the perfect combination of cutting tools, since, again, the proper combination is driven by environment and activities. I'd be surprised if anyone on this board did anything other than agree with me on that.

To me, the answer to the question, "Does it baton well," fixes the knife into one category of knife or the other, depending on the actual answer.
 
HoB said:
Any manufacturer claiming that they had to make their knife thicker than they otherwise would have in order to allow for batoning is A) either lying (effecively marketing), B) clueless, C) has been cutting corners somewhere else in the manufacturing process and tries to compensate weak or brittle steel with thickness.
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Yup.

Batoning folders is a completely different issue. Even strong locks are usually very limited in the amount of impact they can take.
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You don't need to load the lock significantly, impact between the handle and the wood.

Crito said:
In other words, does their specificity as heavy use instruments make them one-trick ponies?
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It doesn't have to, lots of large blades will cut very well. Of course the "tactical" ones are not overly useful as cutting instruments.

-Cliff
 
Well, I would consider that a too narrow view or definition of knives. A well made Golok or machete is a very useful tool, and so can be a large knife or an axe. It is all about using the right tool for the job and Nesmuks trio illustrates that very well. Given the choice, I would like a small blade, 3-4.5" in the absence of restrictions of society I would prefer a fixed blade, not under 2.5 mm thickness, because I don't like a blade with too much flex and up to 4 mm, very much dependent on blade width. The relief angle is far more important to me than absolute blade thickness. In addition to that I would like a pretty large blade, 7-10" or an axe or hatchet. I am still experiementing what I think is ideal, so my opinions are likely going to vary as I learn more and more about this. The large and small blades serve very different tasks, but common to both must be that they are suited to the intended use. Even the large blade should have a sensible geometry which is usually much thinner than most tactical grinds.

I have bought the 7" BRKT Rogue as an attempt to reduce the requirements to one blade. I think it works, but it is obviously a trade-off. It is not as nimble as a smaller blade and thicker too, and it does not have the weight and length of a larger blade or axe. But, if you want to go ultralight a 6-7" knife with a total weight of 10-14 oz with a nice and thin geometry near the edge and a fairly thick spin (about 3/16) to generate the necessary weight would likely be my choice. I find everything beyond 7" gets very unwieldy for a general use knife. But again, this is all subject to change as I continue to experiment. A mini-hatchet will be the next thing I will try.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
You don't need to load the lock significantly, impact between the handle and the wood.
-Cliff
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I tried that with the Military, but even then I impacted the face of the lockbar somewhat. Not to the extent that lockup was compromised, but enough that I could readily see and feel it. I think best is to hit directly on the lock as you have suggested on the Byrds you tested. That way the stop bar is taking the load.
 
Crito said:
thick being defined as sufficiently robust so as to encourage batoning when not immediatly required.
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Batoning is largely cutting, not splitting. That's why a good fixed-blade knife under 1/8" thick batons just fine with proper technique.

I fear I do not grasp your definition, but that is probably just me.

Surely are lots of good knives around in the 4" x 1/8" category, and if that's what works for you . . . . . :thumbup:
 
I think HOB made my point quite well. If a truly useful general purpose knife must be complemented by something larger and more suited for splitting wood, constructing shelters, felling trees, I'd vote for an axe over a large fixed blade.

A sharped axe, used properly, will be superior for these tasks (especially given its utility as a hammer/mallet). If you knew you were going to be in wilderness conditions, perhaps indefinitely, would you choose a second, larger blade or a tool specifically designed for those heavier tasks?

If only one thing can be carried, I'd still go for the smaller knife and be damned careful if and when I put it to harder tasks.
 
HoB said:
I tried that with the Military, but even then I impacted the face of the lockbar somewhat.
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That is interesting, I have done it with the lock not even engaged. This can be a small countertorque required but unless the wood is really large it should not be significant. If you really want to avoid the lock competely you can just impact on both sides of the blade on the log at the same time which just requires a bit of a jig. You can also press down on the tip with a piece of wood and baton the blade on the other side of the wood, or vice versa. There is then no loading of the lock at all. Some makers have been very aggressive on impacts with locks though, see Ritters description of his use for example. I would really like to see a video of that demonstrated because "aggressive swings" and "heavy impacts" mean different things to different people.

-Cliff
 
"Now, I had never in my life heard of such treatment of a knife being "normal", but there you are. Cliffie isn't the only one who likes to fell and split trees for firewood with a knife, and manufacturers are designing knives just for this. IMHO, this negates their usefulness in many roles..."

Thank you. That is just what I was thinking. I have done it but it is not ideal. It can be done with no harm to any decent blade but most of the time, there is really no need to do it. Most wood that can be split with a belt knife is not large enough to need splitting anyway. The only logs that need to be split are too large for any knife I am going to be carrying.

If I need to split logs that are larger than a normal sized knife blade, I will have a axe or something with me. Like others have said, it is good to know how to do it but it isn't something that is really important in my eyes when I consider a blade.
 
I like battoning.... there, I said it.

Growing up with a fireplace in my home gave me alot of experience with cutting and splitting firewood and my all time favorite tool for that task was my grandfathers old splitting froe. Basically a thick knife.

Now consider that whole "survival" aspect of it and think about what you'll most likely have on you. Even if your scrounging in an urban setting, I bet knives outnumber axes and hatchets about a thousand to one.

When in tight quarters, battoning is safer, requires less swinging room, is more percise and less messy.

Yea, I like battoning.
 
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