Battoning

[Tony Turner]

I have not read this whole thread, however, I have seen this question a couple other times. Here is my .02 on this subject. I have done it only to see how my knife handled the job, would it be a life or death situation if my knife couldn't do it, I highly doubt it. Was it cool to say my knife went through a 8" oak log and I could still shave with it, YES. I just don't see doing this with a knife, that is what an ax or a saw is for. You don't butter your toast with a machete do you, you could, but why. This forum is great, where else can you say, "I am tougher than your dog", "my knife is faster than your hand gun", "I only go out in -30deg weather with a ponco liner and wool socks" and get guys to argue with you about it.

 

[HoB]

Well, a splitting froe has been already meantioned, so splitting by batoning is hardly some obscure practice or a tasks that is better left for axes. I think it is also not true that splitting is only useful for huge logs. If you take a look at this kettle (whether you like it or not is a different issue, I don't think it would be my choice)
http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/kellystove.html
fuel for it is probably better generated with a small knife than with anything large.

But again, batoning is not only for splitting. Anything that can not be cleared with one slice or stroke is often easier batoned. Most people tend to "baton" a knife, when cutting through an apple or a pumpkin.

 

[Crito]

I wouldn't question whether splitting small pieces of wood is more efficiently done with a knife-like blade (froe, etc.). Clearly, a small swinging radius and the still edge/swinging blunt object approach is more than marginally safer than choking up on an axe or using a hatchet. Nor do I imagine batoning as an obscure practice--it's common and serves a real purpose, especially if an axe or hatchet isn't at hand.

Can you guys think of robust fixed blades (or folders) that you think fit both tasks well? kgriggs8 and bulgron seem to suggest that either a knife is generally useful for knife-style work or generally useful as a heavy tool. I'm inclined to agree but sure that many won't.

I chose the folder I carry in part because it seems like a reasonable attempt to remain useful while leaning in the direction of robustness.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Was it cool to say my knife went through a 8" oak log and I could still shave with it, YES.

Most splitting that is discussed on this forum is on much smaller woods, 2-4" is common. It isn't done because it is cool, it is done because it is efficient.

-Clif

 

[Crito]

Really? From the pics I've seen on a thread devoted to the utility of fixed vs. folding knives, the avergage tree diameter looked to be 6-8". And I wouldn't think that knives need to be made more robust (generally) to tackle such a task, given proper care. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that my T2 could safely be batoned through a 2" sapling crosswise or with the grain.

But with this, my initial question may be answered. A general purpose knife is sufficient for this, in extremis.

 

[shotgunner11]

Can you guys think of robust fixed blades (or folders) that you think fit both tasks well? kgriggs8 and bulgron seem to suggest that either a knife is generally useful for knife-style work or generally useful as a heavy tool. I'm inclined to agree but sure that many won't.

I chose the folder I carry in part because it seems like a reasonable attempt to remain useful while leaning in the direction of robustness.

I find my Becker Crewman to be a fairly good all around tool. It batons well and also is a more than adequate slicer, carver, whittler and performs well in most outdoor roles.

I carry a Manix as my EDC and, though I dont baton it, it is more than up to the task and performs all the other tasks I could ever ask of it.

As far as I'm concerned, batoning folders is bad juju.

 

[Crito]

Theoretically, I'm not sure why is should be. If one placed the blade firmly against the wood and struck the spine while applying minimal pressure to the handle, no stress will be placed on the lock at all. In fact, given a positive blade stop, the direction of force should hold the blade open.

I could imagine blade closure/lock failure if sufficient pressure were involved in unsticking a knife firmly embedded in a stout piece of wood. However, holding my fingers/hands safely out of the way, I can't get the liner lock on my T2 to fail using my full strength and maximum leverage (ends of handle and blade)--and I'm a fairly robust guy.

In other words, if we're talking about batoning wood approx. 2" in diameter, I wouldn't hesitate if the need arose--but I'd NEED to do this to whack on my knife with a log or rock.

 

[Tony Turner]

Most splitting that is discussed on this forum is on much smaller woods, 2-4" is common. It isn't done because it is cool, it is done because it is efficient.

-Clif

why would you have to baton 2-4" saplings. start your fire with smaller twigs,grass,leaves, wood shavings or other smaller kiddling then throw your larger wood on top of that. Why risk damaging a blade when you don't have too. I have never been in a situation where I HAD TO baton with a blade to survive or start a fire.

you are not going to convince me that this is a normal use for a knife.

 

[shotgunner11]

I wouldn't baton a folder because, frankly, I paid over a hundred bucks for my Manix and to me, thats a TON of money. Not willing to risk that.

If in a survival type situation, I wouldn't risk my only knife to batoning if it were a folder and that is most likely the knife I would have with me.

Sorry Tony, but you'll never convince me that theres a set list of normal uses for a tool as versitle as a knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

you are not going to convince me that this is a normal use for a knife.

Why would I wish to convince you of anything. Since your mind is closed then conversation is pointless. The fact that you aggressively promote the fact that you are unwilling to consider another point of view on a discussion forum is kind of ironic.

If one placed the blade firmly against the wood and struck the spine while applying minimal pressure to the handle, no stress will be placed on the lock at all.

One the blade is in the wood, further force is usually applied by impacting the tip, this will just rotate the blade unless the countertorque is provided by the off hand. This will then produce an internal torque in the knife which will be significant around the lock. However as I noted in the above, you don't need to impact the blade in that manner. you can pick the location so as to produce minimal to no torque on the lock.

From the pics I've seen on a thread devoted to the utility of fixed vs. folding knives, the avergage tree diameter looked to be 6-8".

I'd usually stick to woods which are 2-4". Alders are a local wood which tend to be useful for firestarting as there are usually a lot of dead ones around 1-3" thick and you can just break them off by hand. Gather up an armfull, split a few down the center and make some shavings. Larger trees in the 6-8" range won't actually burn when fresh, local woods anyway. Most fresh woods also have a similar density to water which is 1000 kg/m^3, it doesn't take much size to a tree before it gets difficult to move.

A lot of the time you are seeing people split woods they have cut to burn in a wood stove which is why it is larger, few people cut down 6-8" wood for a camp fire. Beyond just burning, impact splitting is done to make things like spoons and such and you do this with small pieces of wood, again just a couple of inches thick. The same technique is used to make wedges to split larger pieces of wood, split wood to laminate it to give it flexibility, make shingles, etc. . There are many reasons to split, it is much faster than carving away stock, it gives you multiple pieces of wood, etc. .

A general purpose knife is sufficient for this, in extremis.

Generally yes, it isn't that demanding. The common shop/hack knives which are actually made to do it specifically are only 1/8" thick. Ironically, they are actually thinner that most common production folders which are designed "to cut".

-Cliff

 

[2dogs]

I broke the blade off an old Gerber folding sportsman stag when I was demonstrating batoning to a girl scout troop back in the mid 80s. I was splitting redwood about 2" in diameter like I had done in the past when the blade snapped off. I had only lightly tapped into the 12" or so long section when the blade broke. I don't think there was any stress on the lock as the blade broke right at transition from stright stock to grind. Gerber replaced the blade and I still have the knife.

 

[Crito]

That's what I call an excellent post. I hadn't thought about the problem of counter-torque. I was imagining (which is always realistic, of course) using the last 1/3 of the blade as the wood-splitting wedge, leaving me a reasonable striking area just forward of the lock. The counter-torque in that instance would be applied by levering the handle upward, forcing the blade open rather than shut.

Obviously this wouldn't work with larger pieces of wood. Does anyone have experience with this technique?

 

[HoB]

Well, when I test batoning, I go as large as possible only to see what the maximum diameter for a given bladelength is, where batoning is still efficient - not to proof anything about the knife. At some point you simply run out of bladelength, there are other ways to split even larger rounds if you get creative, but that is then really only last ditch resorts mainly because of the lack of efficency, not because for fear for the knife. This is also the reason why many people baton even small (4") knives, because often you only deal with 2"-4" branches.

Well, again even though it is possible to baton folders there should be a distinction between folders and fixed blades. I can kind of understand that someone would be reluctant to baton a folder, but there is absolutely no excuse to declare batoning a fixed blade anything other than perfectly normal and acceptable use, which still makes the presumption of the need debatable. I understand anyone who says, "I don't see the need for it, I have other methods". I only don't understand when someone tries to declare batoning unnecessary abuse of a knife or placing your only tool at risk. It is not, it may not be necessary, but it is useful and it is most certainly no abuse and if the knife is well made it poses no threat to the knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I only don't understand when someone tries to declare batoning unnecessary abuse of a knife or placing your only tool at risk.

The main reason is that it has caught cross fire from being associated with knives promoted for durability and there is a really large contention between the bushcraft and survival viewpoint for a lot of individuals. What is really ironic is that there are many wood working blades which are actually specifically designed to be used for impact cutting and splitting.

I broke the blade off an old Gerber folding sportsman stag when I was demonstrating batoning to a girl scout troop back in the mid 80s. I was splitting redwood about 2" in diameter like I had done in the past when the blade snapped off. I had only lightly tapped into the 12" or so long section when the blade broke. I don't think there was any stress on the lock as the blade broke right at transition from stright stock to grind.

Those impacts are really light and should not be an issue with any common cutlery steels. That I would assume was a fault in the steel of which there are many types.

...using the last 1/3 of the blade as the wood-splitting wedge, leaving me a reasonable striking area just forward of the lock. The counter-torque in that instance would be applied by levering the handle upward, forcing the blade open rather than shut.

Yeah, that is what I do for most folders. Most locks are also way more capable of resisting force to basically over open them than force them closed.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas Linton]

IF I have a specialized tool for opening up wood and have a need to do so, I would surely use that tool.

IF I knew I would probably be opening up lots of wood, I would do my best to have a specialized tool available.

I personally never go off road without a folding pruning saw to supplement a fixed-blade and a folder --- at a minimum. My old Marbles No. 9 has logged many miles on the side of my pack and given me good service, including last weekend. When I was younger, the No. 9 always went.

But IF I happen to have only a knife and I need to open up wood, what is the offense to the gods of woodcraft if I use a technique that shingled all the houses in this continent for the first hundred years of our history, by cutting the wood open by batoning the spine of a blade?

It does not take a particularly "special" knife. It works best, within limits, with a knife that cuts well, and four inches is plenty of length for shelter poles and fuel for the fire.

It's just a nice thing to know how to do, IMO. Accordingly, it's nice to learn proper technique to lessen the need for a "sharpened pry bar" to avoid damage to the knife.

Wilderness survival has an element of adapting and improvising that is not usefully eliminated by the mantra "the right tool." If it were, no need to talk about what to use to cut the wood to make the shelter. Just pitch the tent -- the "right tool" -- and pass the charcoal lighter to get the fire going.

 

[Fonly]

Yup, If I HAD to split wood with my knife I would, If I didn't then I wont, Plain and simple. Survival situations require you make do with what you have, If that means My axe fell out of the canoe comin over that water fall, then my knife is the next best thing and will make the situation a little eaiser. Of course If I had my axe that would make the situation even easier, but I dont, and its a survival situation.

 

[GibsonFan]

But IF I happen to have only a knife and I need to open up wood, what is the offense to the gods of woodcraft if I use a technique that shingled all the houses on this continent for the first hundred years of our history, by cutting the wood open by batoning the spine of a blade?

That is the most intelligent, well-written statement I've seen on this thread/topic.

I mean no offense to other posters, there are a lot of smart things being said here. But Thomas completely summed up a reasonable approoach to the whole issue.

I would not baton a folder of any stripe. I only baton to split wood; if a good whack or two doesn't cut through a section, it's time to step on it and break it with elbow-power. I see no need at all, ever, to cut through a 6" log with a knife. I recently bought a Coughlan's folding saw, looking forward to testing that.

 

[abo4ster]

I don't carry a hatchet, but I am in the southern Appalachians. I do carry a fixed blade, usually a Mora, because it is light and does everything I need it to do, including batonning.

When I do baton a piece of wood, it is in the procurement and splitting of a hearthboard for a bow drill set, usually smaller in diameter than my wrist. I have also batonned in procuring a piece of wood to make a spoon and a ridgepole for a shelter.

 

[HoB]

I see no need at all, ever, to cut through a 6" log with a knife. I recently bought a Coughlan's folding saw, looking forward to testing that.

See, this is really the underlying problem here: Some people seem to intentionally try to misunderstand the issue. In no post of this thread has ever been suggested that you should or could "cut through a 6" log" by batoning. No sensible person would try to cut through a 6" log with a knife. Splitting a log of pretty much any size that happens to be encountered is very different. And most people that baton also carry a folding saw. One does not replace the other. They supplement each other. Sawing through a piece of wood lengthwise (ripping) is essentially to get nice flat boards, but hardly something that is needed or sensible (for the lack of efficiency) in a woodcraft situation.

 

[David Schott]

As a maker, Im lucky to never ever carry production knives and also get to test my knives through any paces i choose without losing any sleep. My camping choice of tools is a competition cutter I made a while back. 15" long .30 thick 5160, differential hardening, with neoprene slab handles. IMHO, thats a knife made to baton with. I can limb trees, baton firewood, and still have a knife that isnt built thick like an axe so can handle finer tasks as well. People need to decide if they are batoning just to baton, or if they are doing it in context. If you need to build a campfire and all you brought was a folding knife, the problem lies in your planning and preparedness, not the knife. If its an unexpected life or death situation, go ahead and baton with anything that you have with you...who cares if a lock breaks so long as you dont freeze to death.

Fun thread, as always. Id put my money on the fact that you could baton a 6" thick log with a butter knife if push came to shove....any takers?

Statements about batoning and then shaving hair are somewhat pointless. next time you baton, take a look at the knife about two whacks in....the cutting edge really only comes into play to get the knife into the wood. beyond that, youre using the spine thickness to split the wood rather than the edge to cut the wood.