Battoning

HoB said:
Sawing through a piece of wood lengthwise (ripping) is essentially to get nice flat boards, but hardly something that is needed or sensible (for the lack of efficiency) in a woodcraft situation.
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You also generally don't do it with the same type of saw that you cross cut with either. I have used impact cutting on small blades on large wood just to check the efficiency, Jim Aston did some comparisons of that nature a few years back as well. It is much slower than a larger blade or small hatchet, even one not well suited to wood craft. But of course much faster than whittling the wood down. It is kind of rare though to have to cut large wood to that extent.

-Cliff
 
This thread aroused my interest in whether our relatively sedentary, urbane lives have diminished our understanding of just how rugged our knives really are. While I've seen other posts in which the touted advantage of fixed blades over folders is the ability to fell 6" trees, I think batoning as understood in this thread makes sense, especially when the knife is all you've got.

To that end, and to avoid the spectre of using a super-top of the line model that wouldn't represent what many people carry, I tried batoning my Buck 110to take down a 2" sapling. I used great care, striking the blade directly over the impact area on the blade with a peice of wood. I was also careful to avoid prying the knife out of the wood in such a manner that I might close the blade if the lock should fail.

Now I'm not sure precisely when this might be necessary, but I know that it can be done and how to do it I need to. I was also surprised that the folder seemed absolutely no worse for wear, and I checked the exposed lock (revealed by holding the balde at just the right angle) and could not find any visible signs of stress.

Technique suggestions? General thoughts? Are our knives tougher than we think?
 
Most knives are way tougher than the average person requires, needs, or knows. Some people get excited about the theoretical use of their knives...others think their knives are a multi-tool...others think their knives are hammers or prybars. I would say, though, that the average informed knife owner will not normally use his knives to their fullest extent.

To quote something i have on my desk here at work:

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about"
 
I am loathe to push a knife to failure, especially one that I love or have paid dearly for. But I also find that too many of my knives don't get used for the hard stuff because of this--so I'm trying to change that and use them sensibly but thoroughly.
 
Crito: Well, you just heard from someone who said that he wasn't willing to risk damage to a $100 knife, even though it is promoted and designed for pretty heavy use, because (and I would agree here) $100 is a lot of money. How would one ever find out what a knife can or can not do with such an attitude regardless whether you live in the sticks or downtown Manhatten (where knives are illegal anyways)? Lockbacks have in general pretty large mating surfaces, so they should withstand significant impacts but it always helps to load the lock as little as possible and in a direction where the lock is the strongest, because in this scenary, the lock is really likely to be the failure point. The liner lock has much smaller mating surfaces. In general I would guess that a liner lock of the same strength as a lockback takes impacts not as well. That is just a guess though.

Personally, I rather risk damage to a knife right now when I can go back inside to warm myself up, than figuring it out when I really have no other options. That doesn't mean I am going to intentially break a knife, only that I like to get a feel for whether a task is well within the performance limits of a knife.

But I think the main issue lies with the misconceived notion that you would need to clobber the s#!+ out of a blade during batoning. If you are sensible and work with the grain whenever you can, it really doesn't take that much.

And no, David, you are not going to get me to bet against you and the butterknife ;).
 
I'm completely with you. I tested weapon systems for critical failures BEFORE I needed them. I intend to do the same things with my knives.

I know that this is asking for trouble, but I'm not sure that well-made liner locks are theoretically or practically weaker than lock-backs. Neither has failed spine whacks for me. But I've only owned very high quality liners--a Benchmade Sentinel and a Lone Wolf T2.
 
Spliting wood with a small hand axe can be hard and very dangerous. When you baton you stand the wood up and sit the knife on top thus having the wood stable w/o getting your hand in the way for cutting. when you split with a axe you have to stand the wood up with your hands. If the log will sit on its own its usually too large to baton with a 6 or so inch knife anyways.

Who wants to go on a hike or walk around when camping with a damn tool belt on? one knife one life!
 
SubaruSTi said:
when you split with a axe you have to stand the wood up with your hands.
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In such cases, especially where the wood is cut with an axe so isn't square on the ends, often it is more practical to split it with the wood actually lying down rather than standing up.

Crito said:
I know that this is asking for trouble, but I'm not sure that well-made liner locks are theoretically or practically weaker than lock-backs.
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When they are both well made they are exceptionally strong. Liner locks have smaller mating surfaces though and can be prone to pressure contact failures, especially when the locks barely engage.

Crito said:
... diminished our understanding of just how rugged our knives really are.
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Not just for durability, but most aspects of performance. Most tests of edge retention which are claimed for exceptional performance for example are not. With most batoning, an understanding of the wood is critical, the baton just replaces the swing of the blade, in other respects the manner of cutting is similar.

-Cliff
 
thats not always perfect though cliff and can take many swings somtimes. also reqires alot of practice with an axe, and should be a smaller axe thus making the need for more than one type of the tool. unless your halfassing it.
 
Cliff,

This is slightly off-topic, but I know you are the go-to guy for this question. Just how hard do you think I can push the liner lock on my T2?

How much direct force, in your experience, does it take to cause a well constructed liner lock to fail?

How much point/tip pressure?

Have you tested similarly well constructed liners to failure?

I have always been leery of white-knuckling a lock back for fear of actuating the locking mechanism just enough to disengage the lock under strain. I've tried this with liners (BM and Lone Wolf) and not had any problem. What I like mechanically about the liner is that in theory, it creates a full (if disconnected) tang of blade and liner. If the liner does not slip, say if it were spot welded in place, you'd have a true fixed knife. In other words, failure not do to moving the liner would require a catastrophic failure of the metal itself, and as robust as most well made liners are, that's unlikely.

Lock backs, similarly spot welded, do not have the mechanical advantage of straight-line compression, depending instead on friction and the mating angles of the locking male and female parts.

Thoughts? I kneel before the guru in humble expectation.
 
SubaruSTi said:
... and can take many swings somtimes.
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Generally, unless the wood is really easy to split, the cut into the horizontal wood is to just break open the wood. I then just pound the wood through the axe by slamming the end of the wood into the ground the same as you would directly for vertically split small woods where they don't have enough weight for reverse poll strikes. However, in most cases it is actually far easier to split such wood with a knife, especially if it is knotty.

Crito said:
Have you tested similarly well constructed liners to failure?
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Yes, direct force isn't an issue, the strength is really high. The big issue is impacts, it doesn't take a lot of impact (nothing beyond a normal man) to mess up a lot of liner locks because they are so thin that they will deform under the pressure. This is made worse because some of them only contact the tang at the front or partially left/right. In this case the strength is so low you can just torque with your wrist and crack a piece off the liner by shear failure. Some of them also have pieces cut out of the liner and this is again a large weak point. I discussed some details including the impact energies in the Military review.


Lock backs, similarly spot welded, do not have the mechanical advantage of straight-line compression, depending instead on friction and the mating angles of the locking male and female parts.
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In general, the construction of the liner lock is actually quite horrible from a stability/strength perspective because it is unstable equilibrium and any loads on the lock will act on the lock in its weakest frame. Campare this to the Axis for example and you see a completely different loading scheme. With the axis you actually have to either break a pin or impact it so severely you knock it sideways which is not even along the loading axis. The compression lock is also a much stronger and more stable design than the liner lock even though they look similar because the force loads the liner in a compression lock along a much stronger axis. You actually have to bend the liner through its width whereas in the liner lock construction it is forced to bend through its thickness.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I then just pound the wood through the axe by slamming the end of the wood into the ground... -Cliff
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I've never quite felt safe doing that. In fact, I have actually whacked my Rifleman's 'hawk's poll with a stout stick to get it through a knotty piece. Yes, that's right, I batonned a tomahawk! Chew on that one for a while, ho ho.

Before anyone asks, I decided it would have been easier to baton a knife, due to the thinner blade.
 
Crito said:
I know that this is asking for trouble, but I'm not sure that well-made liner locks are theoretically or practically weaker than lock-backs.
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Well, as Cliff already said, I wasn't referring to strength of the lock but to failure under repeated impacts. The failure mode there is mostly a question of how easily you can deform the mating surfaces. This is assuming that both are well made.

Impacts are generally a completely different animal than pure strength. Just as an illustration, a nail most adults wouldn't be able to bend even a child could easily hammer completely out of shape.
 
Never heard the term "batoning" before coming to this place. But that technique is another aspect of the Becker Brute that attracted me to it. I like big knives. I didn't want the extra weight of my smaller axe in my pack when humping through the bush, when I could double with the Brute. I also wanted a big knife because I don't carry firearms and I'm in black bear country. Odds are in a confrontation that it would shred my ass to ribbons, but I still feel a little safer with it. Idealy a small axe/hatchet and a smaller hip knife would fill my needs. My choice is a mixed compromise and maybe not followinga straight logical path, but I just like the darn thing also.:D To me batoning is another minor factor that adds utility to my BK1.
 
Just so you "dudes" understand...A folding knife is not to be batonned while it's locked!!! Leave it half open, kind of an L shape then you "dudes" will not see lock failures when small pieces of wood need to be split off larger pieces.

This Cliff guy is an idiot, why do you folks listen to him?
 
Mike The Money Maker said:
Just so you "dudes" understand...A folding knife is not to be batonned while it's locked!!! Leave it half open, kind of an L shape then you "dudes" will not see lock failures when small pieces of wood need to be split off larger pieces.

This Cliff guy is an idiot, why do you folks listen to him?
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here troll... cookie cookie cookie!!!...
 
Buy a Busse or Swamp Rat. They are made to be abused and come with a lifetime replacement guarantee.
 
upnorth said:
Never heard the term "batoning" before coming to this place. But that technique is another aspect of the Becker Brute that attracted me to it. I like big knives. I didn't want the extra weight of my smaller axe in my pack when humping through the bush, when I could double with the Brute. I also wanted a big knife because I don't carry firearms and I'm in black bear country. Odds are in a confrontation that it would shred my ass to ribbons, but I still feel a little safer with it. Idealy a small axe/hatchet and a smaller hip knife would fill my needs. My choice is a mixed compromise and maybe not followinga straight logical path, but I just like the darn thing also.:D To me batoning is another minor factor that adds utility to my BK1.
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Hear! Hear! I agree. I use my BK1 in exactly the same manner for the same exact purpose and it works extremely well. I am very happy with it and have stopped carrying my hatchet.

KR
 
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