Bear Defense?

sure the 9mm can stop it, the closer the range, the better, cause regardless of what gun you have, you'll need a BRAIN hit. nothing else will suffice, except by pure luck. 100 lb deer run for several seconds after being shot thru the heart with 3006 sps or 12 ga slugs. Why would a bear be easier to stop, hmm? A 9mm to the brain is just as effective as a 458 to the brain. anyone can prove that on 1500 lb bulls at slaughter time. Brain hits drop things, dudes.
 
Mastalerz said:
Are bears really that aggressive though? I mean obviously yes they can be aggressive and they are so massive and strong that a 9mm isn't going to stop it at close range. But if a bear sees you does that automatically mean he is going to attack you? Obviously there are different circumstances with animals in general (if a mother is amongst her children, how hungry the animal is, etc.) are all different circumstances that can cause an animal to be more aggressive. I live up in New England and we have "bear country" but I've never ran into one or been worried about it. I'm not being ignorant to the fact that it could kill you or seriously injure you, but how often do they attack on sight? Just curious, many of you have said you've ran into them numerous times, I'm just wondering for educational purposes on how many times you've been threatened by one or had to deploy bear spray/firearm/etc. From what I know of bears they are more of a problem for people with livestock/farms when a bear begins to feel your home and land is his or her hunting territory, and even then they are normally relocated or drive away by specialists.
Click to expand...

With black vs. grizz, you're talking about two quite different species, that have evolved in different environments, and thus have developed different behaviors, and different reactions to finding other large animals in their space.

With black bears, it would be extremely rare for one to "attack on sight." They're simply looking for food, they're not looking to attack people. While curious, they will generally turn and run when encountered, unless they have become habituated (which, unfortunately, far too many have). If they have lost their fear of humans, they may not run away, but they still don't tend to "attack" unless they are sick or starving and food is involved. Most attacks with black bears happen when one wanders into a camp at night, looking for food. They aren't looking to kill people, they're just looking for an easy meal. And too many bad bear encounters are the result of people over-reacting when a confrontation probably could have been avoided, and retaliatory action wasn't actually necessary, imo. Remaining calm, learning to "read" bear behavior, camping appropriately for bear country (hanging food, keeping your kitchen well away from your sleeping area, etc) and prioritizing avoidance (even if it means you have to walk away from your sandwich) are all things that help with avoiding bad encounters.

Grizz are entirely different. They evolved in open, generally tree-less country, as an apex predator. Unlike black bears that evolved in the forest, and learned to climb trees to evade threats, grizzlies had no choice in open country except to stand their ground and confront threats. This, in turn, affected their evolution and behavioral development, resulting in a larger animal, that, simply put, "doesn't take any crap" from anything in its environment. If it sees you as a threat, it's instinct tells it to send you a very clear message, and/or take you out, depending on the situation and that particular bear's temperment. That's why it's generally recommended that you don't try to make yourself bigger and yell when confronted by a grizz (as you would with a black bear) - from the grizz's point of view, you are only making yourself even more of a threat that needs to be eliminated.
 
yeah, and other than Alaska, there's a whoopee couple of hundred grizzes in the US,. guys are SO likely to be attacked by one. Also, without the salmon runs and winter/hunter kills of big game, grizzes just don't get that big. in the lower 48 states, 600 lbs is huge one. Black bears have attacked people, either with intent to eat them, or they were smacking aside the human while trying to kill the yapping dog that had annoyed the bear, then fled and was trying to hide behind the human. :-) When I lived near Chama, I used to pass by a garbage dump in the early morning. There was almost always one black bear there, and somethings, as many as three. They would sort of mosey off, at great leisure, when the guys showed up to open the dump. There's nothing particularly menacing about one. Basically, they are just a pig with claws.

Once, when I was 16 and working on a hog farm, my boss yelled at me to break up a fight between a pair of 700 lb herd boar hogs. They had tuskes about 4" long. I waded into them with a 4 ft long lenght of 2 2x4. I was slashing it down between their faces. In today's money, I was making about $8 an hour and those pigs cost 24k each. So I was trying not to hurt them seriously (not that I could have). :-) Luckily for me, they just ignored me, until Jess showed up with a big wooden gate, which we forced between the boars. Pigs overheat quickly and can die of that overheating, so they calmed down in just a minute or so. This was in an enclosed area, of about 10 ft by 20 ft. I don't think that my little Llama .22autopistol would have been much help if one of them had gotten me down.

Another time, armed with nothing but a switch, I stood in the path of a crazed, 1400 lb Holsten cow as she crashed around a barnyard, jumping fences. She killed herself by falling, popping a blood vessel, the Vet said, after she caught her feet as she cleared a fence and fell heavily. We had tried to milk her for the first time, without having neck stanchions. I was 13 and my brother in law was an idiot. The cow went nuts when the electric milker was first attached to her teat. she smashed her way out of a hinged gate, made of 2x6 oak planks. Dwight told me to run after her and get the hobbles off of her rear legs, I did so and almost got my head kicked off. I was one ignorant, brash young man, back in the day. so I got quite a bit of experince in handling dangerous critters.
 
Last edited:
Smithhammer said:
With black vs. grizz, you're talking about two quite different species, that have evolved in different environments, and thus have developed different behaviors, and different reactions to finding other large animals in their space.

With black bears, it would be extremely rare for one to "attack on sight." They're simply looking for food, they're not looking to attack people. While curious, they will generally turn and run when encountered, unless they have become habituated (which, unfortunately, far too many have). If they have lost their fear of humans, they may not run away, but they still don't tend to "attack" unless they are sick or starving and food is involved. Most attacks with black bears happen when one wanders into a camp at night, looking for food. They aren't looking to kill people, they're just looking for an easy meal. And too many bad bear encounters are the result of people over-reacting when a confrontation probably could have been avoided, and retaliatory action wasn't actually necessary, imo. Remaining calm, learning to "read" bear behavior, camping appropriately for bear country (hanging food, keeping your kitchen well away from your sleeping area, etc) and prioritizing avoidance (even if it means you have to walk away from your sandwich) are all things that help with avoiding bad encounters.

Grizz are entirely different. They evolved in open, generally tree-less country, as an apex predator. Unlike black bears that evolved in the forest, and learned to climb trees to evade threats, grizzlies had no choice in open country except to stand their ground and confront threats. This, in turn, affected their evolution and behavioral development, resulting in a larger animal, that, simply put, "doesn't take any crap" from anything in its environment. If it sees you as a threat, it's instinct tells it to send you a very clear message, and/or take you out, depending on the situation and that particular bear's temperment. That's why it's generally recommended that you don't try to make yourself bigger and yell when confronted by a grizz (as you would with a black bear) - from the grizz's point of view, you are only making yourself even more of a threat that needs to be eliminated.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I was wondering, thanks for the reply!
 
Animals are tough, man. Later, as a black belt 21 year old, I had occasion to "chop" boars across the eyes, or kick them in the testicles,and man, they just blink and squeal a bit, at the former, buck jump and squeal at the latter. You don't know what physical power and resistance to trauma IS until you try to manhandle critters that are bigger than you.
 
bonee said:
....other than Alaska, there's a whoopee couple of hundred grizzes in the US...
Click to expand...

The grizz population in the lower 48 is estimated (by USFWS) to be between 1,400 and 1,700. The Yellowstone/Grand Teton ecosystem holds about 600 of those.
 
Bear spray is the best option , not a gun , it's stupid that people automatically just go to a damn gun thinking there a badass
 
bonee said:
you cant read, obviously. I never said ONE WORD about the dog attacks being restricted to the woodlands. You dont add " a few ozs" to have realistic capabability vs bears, you add about 7 lbs, so that you've got a 3006 autoloading rifle. That's what you need if you live on Kodiak Island. :-) Otherwise, these threads about bears are a joke. Bears charge at 50 fps. Only a brain hit has any likelihood of stopping one. I have competed at the world championship level, combat matches with the rifle and pistol.. I KNOW how fast it's possible to be, likely reaction time and recognition interval, etc. Unless you spot the bear at more than 50 yds of distance, and have your rifle in your hands, ready, you wont be at all likely to stop that charge. Doing so with a pistol is like surviving not having a parachute opening. Its happened, but it's pure luck.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, we are talking about bear protection while in the woods.

Where are these 10000 dog bites happening? I have never seen a wild dog in the woods, and every domesticated dog I have seen was near their owner except for the handful of hunting dogs I have seen.
 
bonee said:
sure the 9mm can stop it, the closer the range, the better, cause regardless of what gun you have, you'll need a BRAIN hit. nothing else will suffice, except by pure luck. 100 lb deer run for several seconds after being shot thru the heart with 3006 sps or 12 ga slugs. Why would a bear be easier to stop, hmm? A 9mm to the brain is just as effective as a 458 to the brain. anyone can prove that on 1500 lb bulls at slaughter time. Brain hits drop things, dudes.
Click to expand...

You would be aming at a very difficult target. Also, consider that recently a police officer emptied his 40. cal service pistol on a nusaince bear that had been raiding the trash; the thing barely took noticed of him and just continued eating. When they autopsied the bear they discovered that not a single 40cal. round had penerated the brear's skin; the rounds had all been stopped by the heavy fur.

n2s
 
ThriftyJoe said:
Wilderness leash laws are there for a reason. Being near the owner does not stop dog bites. I hope no dog owners here think Fido would never bite a stranger just because he's within your line of sight. Happens all the time, hiking trail or no.

Dogs. Nature's deadliest killing machine. http://i.imgur.com/djJ3a0D.jpg
Click to expand...

Georgia has no statewide Leash Law that I am aware of and neither does my county.
Concerning "happens all the time", I cannot recall meeting a single person with an injury from a dog.

Obviously we are experiencing different worlds here.
 
ThriftyJoe said:
Here's one of the places in Colorado I backpack: http://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/wildView?WID=485&tab=Area Management Trails are always loaded with unleashed dogs.

I Googled "us dog bite". This was the first link: http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics.php

Dog bite statistics ::

Each day, about 1,000 U.S. citizens require emergency care treatment for dog bite injury.1 The following studies examine injury occurrence and the dog breeds most likely to bite.
Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada,
September 1982 to December 31, 2012

By compiling U.S. and Canadian press accounts between 1982 and 2012, Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, shows the breeds most responsible for serious injury and death.
The combination of large molosser breeds, including pit bulls, rottweilers, presa canarios, cane corsos, mastiffs, dogo argentinos, fila brasieros, and their mixes:

79% of attacks that induce bodily harm
72% of attacks to children
85% of attack to adults
69% of attacks that result in fatalities
77% that result in maiming
Click to expand...

I can't decipher the statistics quoted here. 72% children and 85% adult? :confused:

I am trying to wade through any cited sources on DogsBite that are not from DogsBite themselves since their agenda is obvious.
 
ThriftyJoe said:
Here's one of the places in Colorado I backpack: http://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/wildView?WID=485&tab=Area Management Trails are always loaded with unleashed dogs.

I Googled "us dog bite". This was the first link: http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics.php

Dog bite statistics ::

Each day, about 1,000 U.S. citizens require emergency care treatment for dog bite injury.1 The following studies examine injury occurrence and the dog breeds most likely to bite.
Dog Attack Deaths and Maimings, U.S. & Canada,
September 1982 to December 31, 2012

By compiling U.S. and Canadian press accounts between 1982 and 2012, Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, shows the breeds most responsible for serious injury and death.
The combination of large molosser breeds, including pit bulls, rottweilers, presa canarios, cane corsos, mastiffs, dogo argentinos, fila brasieros, and their mixes:

79% of attacks that induce bodily harm
72% of attacks to children
85% of attack to adults
69% of attacks that result in fatalities
77% that result in maiming


EDIT: Why in the world do we spend so much time worrying about bear attacks? Based on the actual data, manufacturers ought to be making "dog spray" and specialty "dog guns". I totally want a big huge anti dog gun to carry on the trail. Nationally advertized and instantly recognizable: FIDO NUKER 2000 ;)
Click to expand...
Because those attacks aren't in the woods, mostly all of them are in populated areas. The point of this thread was about bear protection while camping in bear country. Not which animal is more likely to attack you. If more dogs exist in the united states the chance of being attacked by one is more likely, especially since dogs are brought around people. You aren't using statistics right if you are comparing dog attacks in the United States and comparing them I bear attacks when the initial question was best ways to protect yourself from bears while camping.
 
Mastalerz said:
Because those attacks aren't in the woods, mostly all of them are in populated areas. The point of this thread was about bear protection while camping in bear country. Not which animal is more likely to attack you. If more dogs exist in the united states the chance of being attacked by one is more likely, especially since dogs are brought around people. You aren't using statistics right if you are comparing dog attacks in the United States and comparing them I bear attacks when the initial question was best ways to protect yourself from bears while camping.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:
 
i never said that they were good shottists, pard. I;m just pointing out that regardless of the gun chosen, body shots don't have any potential for stopping the bear within 5 seconds, during which he can run 80 yds. no, hitting a shoulder does not stop them.. spine hits are pure luck. A body hit MIGHT make him change his mind, but it's incapable of physically incapacitating him, for 5 seconds.

Plenty of dogs are around when you are in the woods, so your distinction of the 2 is not appropriate. My reasoning for including them on this thread was clearly stated.
 
Always make noise when walking through dense brush or on a wooded trail. If the bear can hear you then there is likely less chance of an encounter with a surprised defensive bear or pissed off bear. Many here in Alaska consider the black bear to be more dangerous. Im told they will start eating you while you are still kicking whereas a Brown or Griz either will not eat you or let you tender up some. Sick or starving bears exlcuded of course. Most violent encounters involve cubs.

Bear spray is ok but I also have a .500 Linebaugh on my hip when hiking ANYWHERE in Alaska. People will also wear "Bear Bells" to let bears know they are around. Strangly enough out on some of the islands where Sitka Black Tail deer hunting is popular, a bear will actively go towards the sound of gunfire. Knowing a gut pile is available or an easily chased off hunter. Its cauesed no few problems in the past.

Revently a guy stopped a bear charge with an AK 74...the 5.45 cal version of the AK 47. Shot the bear several times and it retreated and died in the brush. So, while its correct that a single shot to the body or soft area of a bear will not incapacitate it, noise combined with pain combined with catastrophic blood pressure drop can. Also hitting a bear and breaking the shoulder will tumble the bear, I have seen that first hand.
 
Hmm. Ya know what might be a good deterrent? A big dog, without a leash of course. ;)

Or, you could try something I have dreamed of...

[video=youtube;CVMBdi4dgME]http://youtube.com/watch?v=CVMBdi4dgME[/video]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top