Bearded axe vs. jawed axe ???

Steve Tall said:
There are conflicting sources about this terminology, and perhaps neither is wrong.

"A bearded axe, or Skeggöx (from Old Norse Skegg, beard + öx, axe) refers to various axes, used as a tool and weapon, as early as the 6th century AD. It is most commonly associated with Viking Age Scandinavians. The lower portion of an axe bit is called the "beard" and the cutting edge of the bearded axe extends below the width of the butt to provide a wide cutting surface while keeping the overall weight of the axe low. The hook, or "beard" of the axe would have also been useful in battle, to hook onto things, such as shields or weapons, to pull them out of the defender's grasp... Additionally this design allows the user to grip the haft directly behind the head for planing or shaving wood." --Wikipedia


Wikipedia is admittedly not the best source, but there are plenty of online references to "skeggox" or "bearded axe" that agree with this definition. Searching for "jawed axe" turns up that Beaudry book, and an obscure mention of a jawed axe from Estonia [with no picture], that's about all I found.


More about "bearded axes":

"There were two types of battle-axes used by Scandinavian soldiers. The first was known as the skeggox or bearded axe. It received its name because the bottom of its blade was drawn down toward the haft like a beard.
--The Norwegian Invasion of England in 1066, by Kelly DeVries, page 194


bearded axe: a general style of axe where the lower end or rear corner of the blade, including the heel of the cutting edge, extends considerably beyond the eye or socket thereby permitting the user to grip the handle or half directly above and in line with the cutting edge thereby providing more control when paring or shaving. (common on coach maker’s axes, goosewing axes and some European style felling axes.)
-- from Glossary at YesteryearsTools.com
Click to expand...

None of those sources are experts or accomplished users. Which doesn't mean they are wrong.

I would like to get some opinions from people that actually use the tools. The expert hewers. Especially those from europe.
 
I know language much better than I do axes and I have to tell you that like most things in English the meaning of a word is what most people say it is, especially if those people are the folks that specialize in the item being discussed. A bearded axe isn't what a piece of paper says it is it is what people believe it to be. Words are imprecise and even among enthusiasts the definition of a bearded axe is one that has a elongated bit that you can choke up behind on the bottom.
 
Liberatus1 said:
I know language much better than I do axes and I have to tell you that like most things in English the meaning of a word is what most people say it is, especially if those people are the folks that specialize in the item being discussed. A bearded axe isn't what a piece of paper says it is it is what people believe it to be. Words are imprecise and even among enthusiasts the definition of a bearded axe is one that has a elongated bit that you can choke up behind on the bottom.
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The English are not the "folks that specialized in the item being discussed", but they may well be responsible for getting it all wrong.

I am not at all sure what is correct at this point.
 
Here are some old sweedish hewing axes. What part of these look like a beard?



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garry3 said:
The English are not the "folks that specialized in the item being discussed", but they may well be responsible for getting it all wrong.

I am not at all sure what is correct at this point.
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Maybe the Norse were confused too, see skeggox.
 
garry3 said:
... I would like to get some opinions from people that actually use the tools. The expert hewers. Especially those from europe.
Click to expand...

A former contributor to this forum, Ernest DuBois, does a lot of hewing in the Netherlands, I believe. He has his own site now, from which this is quoted (about the Austrian broadaxe):

"...Mostly, I go in for this pattern because the cheek, or the biggest, most prominent single section of the axe, is kept close in to the grip indicated by the amount of space there in-between, lets call it the beard and the handle. We see it as being compact yet providing a nice open posture luckily, the relation of the length of the handle and length of the cutting edge giving an indication of where the timber would optimally be positioned in relation to the worker."
quoted from https://axework.wordpress.com/2013/09/14/austrian-broadaxe/

Note that he might have been hesitating before calling it a "beard". I wonder what he would call it in Dutch?
 
Interesting photo from Ernest DuBois of an axe that was identified as a "jaw axe" (translated from a Swedish dialect). It looks sorta like what's commonly called a bearded axe, but with the beard cut off (leaving only the jaw?):


dscf2196.jpg


Somebody commented about this axe, "That is a nice old axe made by Billnäs Bruk in Pojo. High quality. That type of axe was used as general purpose axe all over western Finland and there were also similar ones made and used in northern Sweden. The type is called käkyx (jaw axe) in the Swedish dialect that is spoken along the western coart of Finland."

Photo and text from Ernest DuBois' site:
https://axework.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/the-axe-called-kirves/
 
Steve Tall said:
Interesting photo from Ernest DuBois of an axe that was identified as a "jaw axe" (translated from a Swedish dialect). It looks sorta like what's commonly called a bearded axe, but with the beard cut off (leaving only the jaw?):


dscf2196.jpg


Somebody commented about this axe, "That is a nice old axe made by Billnäs Bruk in Pojo. High quality. That type of axe was used as general purpose axe all over western Finland and there were also similar ones made and used in northern Sweden. The type is called käkyx (jaw axe) in the Swedish dialect that is spoken along the western coart of Finland."

Photo and text from Ernest DuBois' site:
https://axework.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/the-axe-called-kirves/
Click to expand...

It would appear that axe had its beard shaved.
 
It's true that you can start calling something by a different name and have the new name catch on. I think that's what's happening with the common use of the term 'bearded axe'. But because we need to be able to differentiate between a bearded axe and a jawed axe it makes sense to keep the traditional meanings of the terms.

Knowledge of axes largely disappeared along with their use. The terms used to describe them have fallen into misuse. Now that there is a revival of interest in axes and their use it makes sense to clear up the use of terms again.

Should we invent a new word for 'car' when someone starts using the word 'car' to mean 'bicycle'? Or should we correct them?
 
This isn't the first time I have had trouble decideing what is right and what is wrong.

The picture of them axes I posted are called goose wing axes by the english, but they are not english axes. I wonder what other names they go by?
 
It's also a matter of what cultural tradition you draw from since terminology varies greatly from culture to culture. As such, multiple terms are often correct but the tradition they stem from must often be noted for clarity's sake.
 
I'd look at your use of "catch", "disappeared" and "fallen", or even look at the definition of beard and jaw to see how fluid meaning really is. Traditional use of words is kind of elusive. A better example for bike might be chopper which is a motorcycle, helicopter, cleaver, teeth, and axe. Hatchet is another one. I think some only use the term to refer to axes that have hammer polls. Other people refer to any small axe with a handle less than 20 inches, see riggers hatchets and camp axes.

Is there any other source that defines the beard as an extension of the toe of an axe, or even a picture of a jawed or bearded axe without the other that could bear out this claim? It was interesting to learn poll also means head, it would make sense too because a poll is essentially a head count or per capita numerical representation. Your cap goes on your poll is very true! I don't know though if we can say he is correct in calling the beard the top because even if it was so archaically with some of the historical examples that have been shared here in subsequent posts or in his own documentation the fact seems to point to the term having changed meaning long before now.

It would be fascinating to know the foundation of the claim and if there are other representations. I would change my use based on that and if all of us committed to this then we might be able to change at least the meaning among folks with specialized knowledge.

Square_peg said:
It's true that you can start calling something by a different name and have the new name catch on. I think that's what's happening with the common use of the term 'bearded axe'. But because we need to be able to differentiate between a bearded axe and a jawed axe it makes sense to keep the traditional meanings of the terms.

Knowledge of axes largely disappeared along with their use. The terms used to describe them have fallen into misuse. Now that there is a revival of interest in axes and their use it makes sense to clear up the use of terms again.

Should we invent a new word for 'car' when someone starts using the word 'car' to mean 'bicycle'? Or should we correct them?
Click to expand...
 
Skeggox is cited as old Norse. That means the use (which is aptly translated into English as bearded axe) does not originate in the recent past. You can see the word carried into modern Scandinavian (swedish) use with surprisingly little change by going to the GFB website; the German translation also might be of interest: Bartaxt! These do not all have the flared toe to which Mr Beaudry refers as a beard.

I believe Mr. Beaudry is confused or over zealous with his metaphor. Unless I see a lot more evidence, I believe he is the one calling a bicycle a car. A beard is a beard. I am willing to believe a short or truncated beard may be referred to as a jaw.

As for goosewing, it may well be an English term. As there are millions if not billions of English speakers, it is allowed us to have unique terms for things whether we invented them or not! It would be interesting to see what they are called in other languages, but doesn't mean goosewing is incorrect.

Anyway, we should strive to be precise, but precision is not normally based on one source.
 
Even the entire concept of the dictionary is based on identifying the use of a word in its first recorded context, which is only meant to be used as a standard, not to say what is more correct or legitimate. Now, as an institution, the dictionary grows by absorbing words which have no origin except in the common misunderstanding of pre-existing words and phrases.
 
In any case calling an extension of the toe by a different name than we call an extension of a heel is useful and clarifies what we're talking about.
 
OK that looks like a jawbone dunnit? Upside down. I can totally see that being called a jaw axe.

Steve Tall said:
Interesting photo from Ernest DuBois of an axe that was identified as a "jaw axe" (translated from a Swedish dialect). It looks sorta like what's commonly called a bearded axe, but with the beard cut off (leaving only the jaw?):


dscf2196.jpg


Somebody commented about this axe, "That is a nice old axe made by Billnäs Bruk in Pojo. High quality. That type of axe was used as general purpose axe all over western Finland and there were also similar ones made and used in northern Sweden. The type is called käkyx (jaw axe) in the Swedish dialect that is spoken along the western coart of Finland."

Photo and text from Ernest DuBois' site:
https://axework.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/the-axe-called-kirves/
Click to expand...
 
I go to a lot of old tool meets and have been collecting a few axes for over 30 years and the old timers (I'm in my 60's) I've met at these events call an axe with an elongated heel a bearded axe. I'm not saying they are right, but I'm not going to straighten them out if they are wrong.

Edited to say heel.
 
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