Bearings or Washers?

[PURPLEDC]

I don't know of any problems with expensive knives and their bearing systems. I also don't know how long the clutch lasts on a Ferrari. The problem is that the majority of expensive guns, knives and other luxury hobby items is that almost none of them get a real workout because they get babied.

And maybe that's okay. Maybe expensive folders could have polished glass bearings for how little it matters. I'm always interested in how stuff works if you treat it like anything else, but clearly that doesn't represent the reality of the situation.


But I do know that putting hard bearings on a soft, machined-in race is not an idea anyone got from a mechanical engineering course. And I think the novelty of this idea has subverted development of the more sound washer system.

I was asking in general. Not specifically expensive knives with bearings. And sure there are a lot of babied knives around but that applies to ALL knives not just those with bearings. And just because many or even if you wanted to say most are babied those that arent have survived fine. I guess I just need a problem to exist to actually have a problem with something. To me the proof is in the actual application. I just feel if the idea of bearings in knives was a real problem that problem would have presented itself by now. So far its just been a bunch of people saying what could potentially happen yet those potentials never turn into reality. Its kinda like end of the world predictions. People always come up with various reasons for why the world is sure to end on an upcoming date. People start talking about it, then get worried about it needlessly and just like a bearing knife keeps flipping the world keeps turning. As for an engineer I am sure they would look at a lot of the things done in knife manufacturing with a raised eyebrow.

 

[BladeMaster99]

I like bearings but washers won't gunk up as bad, washers and most always bronze-phosfor or Teflon. Bearings aren't bad and will be, at least most of the time, smoother than washers. The only thing is that steel bearing will rust unless they are ceramic. Let's just say there's a reason why Rick Hinderer, Mick Strider, and Chris Reeve all use regular washers.

 

[mqqn]

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.

An optimist sees the glass as half full.

An engineer sees the glass as having twice the capacity than is necessary.

best

mqqn

 

[PURPLEDC]

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.

An optimist sees the glass as half full.

An engineer sees the glass as having twice the capacity than is necessary.

best

mqqn

LOL, while very funny its actually very true. And honestly I think it makes sense. As a mechanical engineer many times your job is to design things that if they fail people die. I doubt an engineer would look at a titanium frame lock and think that having the hardened blade lockface rubbing on the soft Ti as a good idea either but its done all the time. Not sure how an engineer would feel about teflon washers either but Im not an engineer.

 

[toker]

Let's just say there's a reason why Rick Hinderer, Mick Strider, and Chris Reeve all use regular washers.

- Yet a good number of Hinderer's ZT collaborations have the KVT bearing system.

 

[Scrim]

I'm waiting for servo motor assist.

I'm a classic "early adopter". I'd try one of those.:thumbup:

 

[stabman]

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.

An optimist sees the glass as half full.

An engineer sees the glass as having twice the capacity than is necessary.

best

mqqn

My dad's an engineer...I've heard that joke before.

And although he overthinks everything, even he isn't concerned about the "problem" of bearings in knives.
The side load to cause problems just isn't there.

Unless you tighten the pivot as tight as it can possibly go every day, then lubricate it enough so it will actually open, then cycle it a whole bunch, and then tighten it again (in a never ending sequence of tightening and cycling), there just isn't going to be an issue with it.

So let's all get back to whether CRK or Strider is more worth the money...you know, real problems.

 

[Scrim]

I posted this question in another thread but haven't really gotten an answer yet. Hoping I'll have better luck here...

I recently got a Shirogorov 111 on washers. It's new and not yet broken in. I find it is, expectedly, not as smooth and fast a my other Shiros with SRBS...of course. My question here is, what is the fastest(?) most efficient way(?) to break in my 111, to get those washers as smooth as possible and this knife to be as fast opening as possible? Is it nothing more than making sure all is clean, lubed, pivot tension adjusted correctly...and then opening & closing a zillion times? I've done and am doing all that. Is there a better/faster way? (butter? bacon fat? shampoo & conditioner? romantic candle light dinners? begging?) Any secrets, tips or inspirational suggestions would be appreciated. Now back to flipping...

 

[RX-79G]

I posted this question in another thread but haven't really gotten an answer yet. Hoping I'll have better luck here...

I recently got a Shirogorov 111 on washers. It's new and not yet broken in. I find it is, expectedly, not as smooth and fast a my other Shiros with SRBS...of course. My question here is, what is the fastest(?) most efficient way(?) to break in my 111, to get those washers as smooth as possible and this knife to be as fast opening as possible? Is it nothing more than making sure all is clean, lubed, pivot tension adjusted correctly...and then opening & closing a zillion times? I've done and am doing all that. Is there a better/faster way? (butter? bacon fat? shampoo & conditioner? romantic candle light dinners? begging?) Any secrets, tips or inspirational suggestions would be appreciated. Now back to flipping...

I've never heard of anyone doing this, but you could disassemble, clean, and reassemble the pivot area with a small amount of Flitz or other metal polish, then open and close a few dozen times before cleaning and re-lube. I would start with a loose pivot adjustment so you don't force out the polish before it can do anything, and maybe tighten a bit as you go.

This would be light version of assembling tight fitted parts (like a custom 1911 pistol) with grinding compound, then working the action into a good fit.

Metal polishes remove very little metal, so there shouldn't be much down side to this. Just make sure you clean all of it out before lubing. Windex cleans Flitz off nicely.

 

[jac_solar]

While I do like bearings, and don't necessarily think bearings are stronger, or weaker, than washers, I do think that it needs a solid construction -- as in, in addition to the bearings, they need hardened steel suppports in the frame. Some folders have bearings straight on G-10, which doesn't work well.

 

[Scrim]

I've never heard of anyone doing this, but you could disassemble, clean, and reassemble the pivot area with a small amount of Flitz or other metal polish, then open and close a few dozen times before cleaning and re-lube. I would start with a loose pivot adjustment so you don't force out the polish before it can do anything, and maybe tighten a bit as you go.

This would be light version of assembling tight fitted parts (like a custom 1911 pistol) with grinding compound, then working the action into a good fit.

Metal polishes remove very little metal, so there shouldn't be much down side to this. Just make sure you clean all of it out before lubing. Windex cleans Flitz off nicely.

Thx RX...I'll give that a try too. It does finally seem to be getting smoother/faster already (from clean/lube/adjust/flip/flip/flip/flip/flip/flip/flip...repeat). Encouraged!

 

[PURPLEDC]

I posted this question in another thread but haven't really gotten an answer yet. Hoping I'll have better luck here...

I recently got a Shirogorov 111 on washers. It's new and not yet broken in. I find it is, expectedly, not as smooth and fast a my other Shiros with SRBS...of course. My question here is, what is the fastest(?) most efficient way(?) to break in my 111, to get those washers as smooth as possible and this knife to be as fast opening as possible? Is it nothing more than making sure all is clean, lubed, pivot tension adjusted correctly...and then opening & closing a zillion times? I've done and am doing all that. Is there a better/faster way? (butter? bacon fat? shampoo & conditioner? romantic candle light dinners? begging?) Any secrets, tips or inspirational suggestions would be appreciated. Now back to flipping...

I have found plain old use is the best way to break in a folder. And if your shiro isnt as smooth as you want it try disengaging the lockbar by wedging something in the handle that wont mar the finish so that the lockbar isnt putting pressure on the tang of the blade. If the blade now swings freely with little resistance then its not the actual pivot that is causing that lack of smooth operation. It would in fact be your detent and lock bar pressure set up. And still using it is the best way to break it in. I would avoid doing things like polishing the washers. Many feel that taking PB washers and sanding them to a mirror polish with help smooth the action of a knife but I have found this actually makes the action of a knife less smooth. When you polish the washers of a knife you lose the small channels left in the surface from machining. These little channels carry lubricant and effectively reduce friction as there is less surface to surface contact. You polish that out smooth now you have no room for lubrication and the two completely smooth surfaces create suction to each other that some call stiction. I would just use it man. No sense in rushing anything.

 

[K.O.D.]

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.

An optimist sees the glass as half full.

An engineer sees the glass as having twice the capacity than is necessary.

best

mqqn

The glass is usually empty around me. I drink water like its going out of style. If there's a full or half full glass in my vicinity, I must be dead.

 

[Scrim]

I have found plain old use is the best way to break in a folder. And if your shiro isnt as smooth as you want it try disengaging the lockbar by wedging something in the handle that wont mar the finish so that the lockbar isnt putting pressure on the tang of the blade. If the blade now swings freely with little resistance then its not the actual pivot that is causing that lack of smooth operation. It would in fact be your detent and lock bar pressure set up. And still using it is the best way to break it in. I would avoid doing things like polishing the washers. Many feel that taking PB washers and sanding them to a mirror polish with help smooth the action of a knife but I have found this actually makes the action of a knife less smooth. When you polish the washers of a knife you lose the small channels left in the surface from machining. These little channels carry lubricant and effectively reduce friction as there is less surface to surface contact. You polish that out smooth now you have no room for lubrication and the two completely smooth surfaces create suction to each other that some call stiction. I would just use it man. No sense in rushing anything.

-----------

Thanks, Purple...good input. Did check the lockbar pressure buy letting blade swing free. I didn't. It's the washers in the pivot slowing things down a bit. But...working on it. Getting smoother every day. I was always curious about the 111. Quite awesome, even without bearings, IMHO.

One more, any opinions of Tuf Glide vs. Nano Oil?:thumbup::thumbdn:?

 

[Scrim]

I've never heard of anyone doing this, but you could disassemble, clean, and reassemble the pivot area with a small amount of Flitz or other metal polish, then open and close a few dozen times before cleaning and re-lube. I would start with a loose pivot adjustment so you don't force out the polish before it can do anything, and maybe tighten a bit as you go.

This would be light version of assembling tight fitted parts (like a custom 1911 pistol) with grinding compound, then working the action into a good fit.

Metal polishes remove very little metal, so there shouldn't be much down side to this. Just make sure you clean all of it out before lubing. Windex cleans Flitz off nicely.

-----

Thanks for this too, RX!

 

[PURPLEDC]

-----------

Thanks, Purple...good input. Did check the lockbar pressure buy letting blade swing free. I didn't. It's the washers in the pivot slowing things down a bit. But...working on it. Getting smoother every day. I was always curious about the 111. Quite awesome, even without bearings, IMHO.

One more, any opinions of Tuf Glide vs. Nano Oil?:thumbup::thumbdn:?

I have used both. I prefer nano oil. Tuff glide is fine but I get a dark grey/black build up that I can only assume is moly. Note that their are two different companies making "nano oil" on is from St. Claire and the other is by quicken. Supposedly quicken was the originator and St claire copied the technology only not as well. I have used both and I really cant tell a difference.

I didn't say Brg. Knives don't work well.

They do not work better than a well built flat (non roller) Brg. Knife and i used a couple of good makers as examples of how a flat Brg. Knife should operate.

I own/owned several custom roller Brg. knives and I say that the roller Brg. Is not the end all, although I do believe it is more forgiving than a flat Brg. And makes for an easier build of a flipper type knife that performs decent.

Still there is a small conflict of interest using Chris Reeve as an example of why bearings dont need to be in a knife. Chris actually does use them. The Ti Lock For instance has ceramic bearings in the pivot.

 

[anvil_den]

I posted this question in another thread but haven't really gotten an answer yet. Hoping I'll have better luck here...

I recently got a Shirogorov 111 on washers. It's new and not yet broken in. I find it is, expectedly, not as smooth and fast a my other Shiros with SRBS...of course. My question here is, what is the fastest(?) most efficient way(?) to break in my 111, to get those washers as smooth as possible and this knife to be as fast opening as possible? Is it nothing more than making sure all is clean, lubed, pivot tension adjusted correctly...and then opening & closing a zillion times? I've done and am doing all that. Is there a better/faster way? (butter? bacon fat? shampoo & conditioner? romantic candle light dinners? begging?) Any secrets, tips or inspirational suggestions would be appreciated. Now back to flipping...

I would agree with Purpledc on the detent and lockbar affecting the "smoothness" on your 111. Mine was a special little piece so the action right out of the box is flipping amazing. But other washers I had, it has been a matter of playing around with the detent/ lockbar and pivot tension. I'm in no hurry to open up my washer shiros.. but with other washer flippers I had good results waxing it rather than lubing them. oil or grease is a bit finicky to work with.. too light too runny they get pushed out the sides too soon. Too viscous.. they impede movement. Wax I use are the liquid type used on bicycle chains that dries up fast-- just a tad will do.

 

[Bludgeon]

If I like the knife, either pivot works for me.

 

[brancron]

Both are fine. One advantage of washers is the knowledge that you can take apart the knife and put it together again without much rigmarole.

 

[gga357]

Bearings for me but if I really like a knife and it has washers no problem.