Bearings or Washers?

[Screwdriver]

Was someone talking to you? I missed that part.

So, is that the new improved washer? Hmmmmmm

best

mqqn

You post in a thread, you are fair game. Maybe you should of PM'd the person you wanted to ONLY answer your post.

And yes, those are the latest washers. Have no idea when they were started to be used, since I do not keep up on version history.

 

[mqqn]

You post in a thread, you are fair game. Maybe you should of PM'd the person you wanted to ONLY answer your post.

And yes, those are the latest washers. Have no idea when they were started to be used, since I do not keep up on version history.

Fair enough.

Most of the people who are classy enough to buy and enjoy Sebenzas display a higher level of class in their posts, and are not so defensive of the brand. CRK knives reputation stands on it's own.

Perhaps you should re-read a few of the posts in this thread and, if you have a little time to reflect, you will see who the people were that began being rude.

You also need to do a lot more reading and less posting.

best

mqqn

 

[Screwdriver]

Fair enough.

Most of the people who are classy enough to buy and enjoy Sebenzas display a higher level of class in their posts, and are not so defensive of the brand. CRK knives reputation stands on it's own.

Perhaps you should re-read a few of the posts in this thread and, if you have a little time to reflect, you will see who the people were that began being rude.

You also need to do a lot more reading and less posting.

best

mqqn

Look at our join dates and post count......

Anyhow, back on point.

 

[mqqn]

Look at our join dates and post count......

Anyhow, back on point.

Yes - apparently some people don't learn.

best

mqqn

 

[Gizler00]

I have used both extensively, and I would have to go with washers.

One simple reason. Less parts, less chance of failure.

A well designed and executed knife on washers is every bit as smooth and quick as one on bearings (from my experience)

So true! And your SMF proves that!!

 

[Gizler00]

Man I'm starting to dislike BF. Seems like more arguing and bickering than good constructive conversations and advice. A lot has changed since I joined in 2006.

 

[RBid]

Man I'm starting to dislike BF. Seems like more arguing and bickering than good constructive conversations and advice. A lot has changed since I joined in 2006.

Whatever, moron. Grow a pair of tacticals and get inclusive, bro!

By which I mean, I sincerely hope that you stick around. There are a lot of people who haven't found their ways to this board, yet. They'll benefit from cool heads and willing exchangers of information.

This thread really could use a group hug and a reminder that we may not always see eye to eye, but at the end of the day, we're all knife people.

Now, I'm off to throw my sense of humor on the Edge Pro. I think it's getting chippy.


*I apologize if this post lacks smart and funnies. I'm pre-coffee.

 

[Gizler00]

Whatever, moron. Grow a pair of tacticals and get inclusive, bro!

By which I mean, I sincerely hope that you stick around. There are a lot of people who haven't found their ways to this board, yet. They'll benefit from cool heads and willing exchangers of information.

This thread really could use a group hug and a reminder that we may not always see eye to eye, but at the end of the day, we're all knife people.

Now, I'm off to throw my sense of humor on the Edge Pro. I think it's getting chippy.


*I apologize if this post lacks smart and funnies. I'm pre-coffee.

Haha. That was funny. I agree we all need to get along. As you said, we are all knife nuts!!

 

[ToddM]

They both work, I won't avoid a knife with either. If I have my choice I'll take washers over bearings if the tolerances are high. I prefer some blade resistance when opening/closing so I like the "hydraulic" feel to a CRK, George etc. for non-flipper knives. I also work in the desert and my bearing knives gunk up faster so if I'm in the field bearing knives stay home. Bearings offer an advantage to the manufacturer of being able to do a more consistent/smoother knife with lower tolerances which saves money and allows them to get a smoother opening more consistent knife at a lower price point.

There's a difference in feel as well, I have some bearing knives that feel super smooth and solid, but most to me feel loose/sloppy when opening/closing at least in comparison to very high tolerance washer knives that are glass smooth and super solid feeling. There's no play in the bearing knives I can see, but I think it's more of a sound/vibration in the handle. A couple of mine tend to squeak as well which drives me nuts. I've had a couple that were from well known makers where it didn't take long for the bearings to wear a groove in the Ti handle but it hasn't become a functional issue. It would be interesting to see if an even higher level of potential speed/smoothness could be achieved if companies were using steel inserts for the bearing to run on in the handles.

One thing is for sure, bearings are not going anywhere. They are a great solution for flipper knives to get lower price points that are still super fast/smooth without having to go to very high tolerances to get the same action from washers consistently.

 

[sabre cat]

I finally got to handle a knife with bearings the other day. Yes, it was smooth but little difference over a well made knife with PB washers. With all the marketing hype, I figured it would be a bigger deal than it really was. The dealer still has the knife. I don't think bearings will ever be a big selling point for me. Give me ergonomics and blade steel.:thumbup:

 

[crom]

Seeing that 25 opened up makes me want one even more now. Hate that.

 

[RX-79G]

I do not understand why the rudeness some of you exhibit is tolerated. Does paying for a Gold Membership allow you to ignore the rules?


Anyway, a washer system is just a thrust bearing system. Thrust bearings are strong and low wear - ideal for low rpm/high stress. Ball bearings are ideal for low friction or high rpms. They work by trading low system friction for much higher contact friction.

I've never heard of a bearing wearing out in a folder. Actually, the beatings will wear out the ti or gall a steel race before it wears out. Just FYI, phosphor bronze washers or nylon washers are not as strong or wear resistant to mechanical friction as stainless steel bearings.

What this really means is that the ball bearings, which are designed to wear out first, are probably going to be grinding away at the knife and scales/liners because those parts aren't necessarily as hard as bearing races should be. That doesn't sound like a good thing. Lubrication and proper bearing adjustment are critical if you don't want to pit the softest race surface in the knife - like the pricey Ti frame.

And if your ball bearings are loose and you put any torque on the bearing - that will also lead to pitting.


In my youth I was a bicycle mechanic and rebuilt thousands of screwed up bearings that I really have a hard time putting ball bearings where they aren't needed.

 

[stabman]

What this really means is that the ball bearings, which are designed to wear out first, are probably going to be grinding away at the knife and scales/liners because those parts aren't necessarily as hard as bearing races should be. That doesn't sound like a good thing. Lubrication and proper bearing adjustment are critical if you don't want to pit the softest race surface in the knife - like the pricey Ti frame.

People often say this...and there is some degree of truth to it.
However, having worked with titanium, it is easy to scratch it, but it takes a whole lot of work to wear it away.

Sure there will be some wear marks where the bearings were, but they aren't going to be wearing through the material to an appreciable degree.
The bearings in a knife aren't getting the same sort of load as those in a bicycle, car, or most other forms of machinery.

 

[crom]

RX79g is right and I never thought about it until now, but what is the torque specs for tightening these the pivot on these itty bitty bearings? I'm talking Newton meters not foot pounds.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I have two names for those who believe Bearings are better.

Chris Reeve & Scott Cook. 😉

It would be relatively easy to mention makers of the same caliber that use bearings. It will always be a choice based on personal preference.

Its obvious you have never owned a Seb 21.

Yeah but the majority of washer knives lack the bushing that takes the guess work out of a sebenza.

 

[stabman]

RX79g is right and I never thought about it until now, but what is the torque specs for tightening these the pivot on these itty bitty bearings? I'm talking Newton meters not foot pounds.

All I know is I don't tighten them much at all.
Like with only my thumb and forefinger holding the torx bit (not even using a handle), and not too much strength applied.

 

[PURPLEDC]

People often say this...and there is some degree of truth to it.
However, having worked with titanium, it is easy to scratch it, but it takes a whole lot of work to wear it away.

Sure there will be some wear marks where the bearings were, but they aren't going to be wearing through the material to an appreciable degree.
The bearings in a knife aren't getting the same sort of load as those in a bicycle, car, or most other forms of machinery.

Agreed. In fact i am surprised at how many people are unaware of cold rolling a bearing race and the work hardening of the material as a result. When we see a line in a titanim frame from a bearing over time it will seem like its a problem. Its really not. That little mark will get slightly bigger. Slightly deeper. But then as the material deforms and work hardens it supports the bearings and that deformation ceases and you just have a smooth knife. Flavio ikoma customs all have these cold rolled races. I would think the only real difference between it and a knife like a zt is that the ikoma had those races intentionally worn in as part of the build process and the zt fans freak out when they see that race start to form even in the slightest thinking their knifemis self destructing when its really the opposite. I think companies should cold roll the races instead of cutting them with an end mill. It would eliminate most of the worry.

 

[stabman]

Agreed. In fact i am surprised at how many people are unaware of cold rolling a bearing race and the work hardening of the material as a result. When we see a line in a titanim frame from a bearing over time it will seem like its a problem. Its really not. That little mark will get slightly bigger. Slightly deeper. But then as the material deforms and work hardens it supports the bearings and that deformation ceases and you just have a smooth knife. Flavio ikoma,customs all have these cold rolled races. I would think the only real difference between it and a knife like a zt is that the ikoma had those races intentionally worn in as part of the build process.

Described in this link.

http://www.ikbsknifetech.com/20801.html

 

[RX-79G]

The other problem with bearings is how much damage foreign matter will do if it gets in between them. Washers are sealed better.

 

[PURPLEDC]

The other problem with bearings is how much damage foreign matter will do if it gets in between them. Washers are sealed better.

Washers can seal better. A bearing flipper can be made sealed as well. I know there are a lot of hypotheticals its just I have yet to see a single bearing equipped knife exhibit any of them. I mean think about it. More people have come to the forum to complain about the edge retention of the 0560 than they have to complain the bearings (in any knife) led to a failure in a knife. And we usually will tell that person with the 0560 that the claims of that knife not holding an edge are exaggerated. So i really dont know why people really worry about this issue when i cant think of a single report of a failure that surely could be blamed on bearings. And the few that i have seen where they claimed it was the bearings fault i think was actually the result of other issues.