Bearings VS Washers

[PURPLEDC]

think youre not reading my post right and missing everything i said.

I was talking to marci. It automatically added you to my post. I have no idea why.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I have a few bones to pick with that video.

The black sludge was never allowed to dry in/on the knife. In liquid form it should not or very minimally affect the action.

Same with watery sand.

In the prying test:

• He was stupid for not wearing safety goggles
• He was using the frame of the knife in addition to the blade
• The car he drove over it with was a trabant. 1100lbs, 55% rear weight distribution, so 302lbs at the wheel driving over the knife. Take into account the shock absorbers and reduced shock from the tires, and it's really not that much weight.

When I was 10, a car ran over my foot. Didn't even break. I would think titanium and steel should fair better.

I dont think in most situations that anyone would allow that stuff to dry on their knife. People talk about bearings as if you look at them sideways and they will fail. I think the point of the test was to expose the knives to elements most will never encounter and show that they will still function. I think the actual ikbs tests show that pretty well. Its a hell of a lot more definitive than the guy sitting in his computer chair theorizing. I do agree flavio ikoma should have been wearing glasses when prying with the knife he made but its also his eyes and i dont see that really mattering.

 

[Mitchell Knives]

I've made folders with both washers and bearings, and have never had any issues with either.

Both work fine, although IMO, bearings are required to get a decent action on a flipper.

Loose bearings are problematic, but the caged variety eliminate any issues.

I seriously doubt that anyone would have issues with washers or bearings provided they are not abusing the knife.

 

[Cutlover]

I've made folders with both washers and bearings, and have never had any issues with either.

Both work fine, although IMO, bearings are required to get a decent action on a flipper.

Loose bearings are problematic, but the caged variety eliminate any issues.

I seriously doubt that anyone would have issues with washers or bearings provided they are not abusing the knife.

See, the problem is that we can't compromise by saying both are great. One MUST be the ultimate form of pivot action, there is no room for a tie.

 

[Mo2]

whats funny is that people talk about this shit on the forums like they know, then someone comes around and actually does some kind of testing and those who just talk refute any thing from it.

haters going to hate. pathetic, but whatever, have your opinions, but look at how you're acting. if you dont like it, do your own experiment to prove your side.

at least someone did something to try and provide some data, as much as you say its anecdotal, its something, its something more than you did.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

My whole problem is no test is evident, it's a snapshot. It's like me postin' these pics and stating that "...riding a sport touring bike off road without the fairings has little to no effect on the bikes performance.", then posting these pics.

I still love the way my bike looks without the plastic, looks like something outta Mad Max or Terminator.

The statement/snapshot has no value, it's a jumble of words and pictures with no real explanation or conclusion. If I wanted to encourage a discussion I'd certainly post much more relevant pics and results than the OP did or at the very least posted/linked to a better source. Finally, the OP had so much passion about the content that he made 1 post and in 3 pages hasn't commented once. Let's post and run, he didn't want a discussion, he wanted to start another battle thread, how's that beneficial to the community at large or the debate of washers vs bearings in particular. I agree that making posts like this (the op) serves no purpose other than to start an argument and create a larger rift between members who already are at odds over nearly every topic to come up.

 

[marcinek]

whats funny is that people talk about this shit on the forums like they know, then someone comes around and actually does some kind of testing and those who just talk refute any thing from it.

haters going to hate. pathetic, but whatever, have your opinions, but look at how you're acting. if you dont like it, do your own experiment to prove your side.

at least someone did something to try and provide some data, as much as you say its anecdotal, its something, its something more than you did.

Its not "hating" or "talking ____" or "pathetic".

Just like its not an "experiment" or "data." Its just anecdotal observation. Like Mitchell Knives made. Except he didn't pretend he was doing some sort of quantifiable, provable science that demonstrated fact.

He just said "From what I have experienced both work fine."

If you want me to do something about settling the argument (I don't see why I am obliged to), I will gladly provide conclusions as valid as the ones you have posted:

Unless your world demands rapid deployment of your knife after stabbing molasses and sand, then I feel it doesn't really matter. Maybe I'm not "real world" enough with all my nerdy science stuff.

 

[jbmonkey]

Its not "hating" or "talking ____" or "pathetic".

Just like its not an "experiment" or "data." Its just anecdotal observation. Like Mitchell Knives made. Except he didn't pretend he was doing some sort of quantifiable, provable science that demonstrated fact.

He just said "From what I have experienced both work fine."

If you want me to do something about settling the argument (I don't see why I am obliged to), I will gladly provide conclusions as valid as the ones you have posted:

Unless your world demands rapid deployment of your knife after stabbing molasses and sand, then I feel it doesn't really matter. Maybe I'm not "real world" enough with all my nerdy science stuff.

if a folder can't handle stabbing molasses and sand i wont' carry it. my life is too valuable while in a candy factory and a sand pit to compromise my carry choices.

 

[marcinek]

if a folder can't handle stabbing molasses and sand i wont' carry it. my life is too valuable while in a candy factory and a sand pit to compromise my carry choices.

You got that right. If you have just stabbed some diatom powder, and some molasses comes at you?!? You gotta deploy quick. Molasses is sneaky fast.

In all seriousness, I really dont care one way or another about the conclusions of this "experiment." Like I said, I don't need to deploy that fast to where washer vs bearing matters.

But. I will continue to discuss this guy's method, which is nonsense couched as science. The data is not data. The method is not a method.

@T.Erdelyi nailed it. And Mitchell Knives presented his conclusions in an infinitely more informative manner.

 

[halden.doerge]

Why can't pivot mechanisms just get along??

 

[PURPLEDC]

You got that right. If you have just stabbed some diatom powder, and some molasses comes at you?!? You gotta deploy quick. Molasses is sneaky fast.

In all seriousness, I really dont care one way or another about the conclusions of this "experiment." Like I said, I don't need to deploy that fast to where washer vs bearing matters.

But. I will continue to discuss this guy's method, which is nonsense couched as science. The data is not data. The method is not a method.

@T.Erdelyi nailed it. And Mitchell Knives presented his conclusions in an infinitely more informative manner.

So. Lets flip this and ask you if someone wanted to perform a test that you would recognize as acceptable on all merits what would that test include? You know what you don't like but what would have to be done that you would recognize as not being nonsense?

 

[K.O.D.]

I have no preference, other than that I prefer pb washers to nylon etc, and caged ball bearings to loose.

I've had multiple knives with each pivot type, with both rough and smooth iterations. My smoothest opening knives are both riding on PB washers. Matt Bailey model 2 flipper geek edition, and TSF Beast. They glide open. My ZT Brous rocket open, my Kizer falls somewhere in between. My Domino is very gritty.

 

[Mo2]

haters and trolls. its the way you are posting and its ruining it for the rest of us.

if you want to dispute it, tell everyone how it should be done, and DO IT YOURSELF to prove it instead of bashing and trolling.

The take away is that the guy that did the experiment found that he prefers bearings as its easier for maintenance as he found out first hand with the test he did for himself.

its like we must all be MIT scientist or from nasa to do anything.

i think the take away from it from my perspective is that, one is not better than the other, but that ball bearings are not as bad as most people make them out to be, especially for getting sand etc in the pivot and maintenance. nothing more than that.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I have no preference, other than that I prefer pb washers to nylon etc, and caged ball bearings to loose.

I've had multiple knives with each pivot type, with both rough and smooth iterations. My smoothest opening knives are both riding on PB washers. Matt Bailey model 2 flipper geek edition, and TSF Beast. They glide open. My ZT Brous rocket open, my Kizer falls somewhere in between. My Domino is very gritty.

I had a domino that was the same way. My southard was even worse. I was tempted to try a mamba but not after those two. I am not a fan of how spyderco make their knives with bearings. And I especially dislike the detents. They overshadow any benefit the pivot may have provided.

 

[Fanglekai]

What do the numbers in the experiment actually mean? What was the control? How does a 6 differ from an 8? What is a 10 in terms of force?

A better test would be to measure the force to open/close the blade with a clean pivot and then measure again multiple times for each contaminant. That would allow for actual data to be obtained, compared, and repeated.

I don't care enough to test this. Bearings and washers are fine with me.

 

[marcinek]

haters and trolls. its the way you are posting and its ruining it for the rest of us.

if you want to dispute it, tell everyone how it should be done, and DO IT YOURSELF to prove it instead of bashing and trolling.

Sorry if the guy thinks he's a scientist...it's not our fault though, and there's no reason why we should sit back and let him (and you) attempt to pass this stuff off as an experiment.

And if he doesn't know what a controlled experiment is, it's hardly anyone else's responsibility to teach him or do an experiment on the subject ourselves.

If he feels his "experiment" proved something to him, good for him. If ti did to you, good for you. But it doesn't prove anything to people who know what an experiment is.

And that has nothing to do with whether you prefer bearings or washers.

 

[marcinek]

So. Lets flip this and ask you if someone wanted to perform a test that you would recognize as acceptable on all merits what would that test include? You know what you don't like but what would have to be done that you would recognize as not being nonsense?

That's a fair question. I suppose one would need two identical knives that vary only by washer vs bearing. I don't know how one would even do that. Then one would need some way to quantifiably measure the ease or smoothness of opening before adding the sand or whatever. Then some way to measure the ease/smoothness after adding the grit.

And one would have to eliminate the possibility that the polishing action of the grit affects the ease/smoothness in some way, etc.

It would be extraordinarily difficult, and anyone who knows the slightest about science wouldn't pretend that they have come up with a controlled experiment testing that when they haven't.

Anyone who knows the slightest bit about science would just say something like Mitchell Knives and you ( PURPLEDC ) posted. And that would be great.

But I guess that all makes science a "%&#@-talking, hating troll."

 

[marcinek]

...oops....quoted myself for no apparent reason.

Well... it was a brilliant post.

 

[palonej]

Heard this so many times in regards to Spydie's bearing flippers, and don't doubt it, but I have those 2, and an Advocate and all 3 are awesome! Smooth and fast wth great lock up.
I guess there are variances in their production?? Improvements during different runs??
Who knows, but again I like washers & BB pivots!!
Joe

I had a domino that was the same way. My southard was even worse. I was tempted to try a mamba but not after those two. I am not a fan of how spyderco make their knives with bearings. And I especially dislike the detents. They overshadow any benefit the pivot may have provided.

 

[palonej]

I would NEVER call science a troll Marci......but math????? There is a ¥~€{*|! talking troll!!

That's a fair question. I suppose one would need two identical knives that vary only by washer vs bearing. I don't know how one would even do that. Then one would need some way to quantifiably measure the ease or smoothness of opening before adding the sand or whatever. Then some way to measure the ease/smoothness after adding the grit.

And one would have to eliminate the possibility that the polishing action of the grit affects the ease/smoothness in some way, etc.

It would be extraordinarily difficult, and anyone who knows the slightest about science wouldn't pretend that they have come up with a controlled experiment testing that when they haven't.

Anyone who knows the slightest bit about science would just say something like Mitchell Knives and you ( PURPLEDC ) posted. And that would be great.

But I guess that all makes science a "%&#@-talking, hating troll."