Becker Brute Concensus

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Fish,

I just looked at your posting history and this thread seems way out of character compared to the rest of your post history.

Take it easy on our buddies here, ok? I woke up on the wrong side a little bit today, too, and I'm a little ornery myself.

~Brian.
 
Knifetester,

Quick reply, but will get back to your excellent and detailed questions -- yes, Ray and I used the hawks extensively for the heavy conditions. But on that trip, we each had about 30 lbs of steel to do T&E (testing & evaluation) on, and so I had picked the Brute as my main chopping KNIFE, and so tested it as well. At the time, when the poop was hitting the fan, we turned to the Hawks as our main heavy-duty tools, because as a tool for chopping they just exceeded any knife we had in performance. Not because any knife was lacking, just that an axe is best for that!

David,

Thanks -- your critique of my review was just as cheerful, and you make good points. As I said, I've changed in some opinions over the years, so I'm going to go back, reread my old review, reread your comments, and then give you a fresh perspective. I may be a moderator here, and I do teach skills, but I am always first and foremost a student. As soon as one thinks they know it all, they die -- especially in the survival game. I am always amazed at how interaction with other experienced wilderness skills folks teaches me something new and better -- so I stay perpetually open and try as hard as I can to keep my ego out of it (I don't always succeed and sometime learn the hard way ;)).

It's the sharing of skills, prinicples, and everything else with others that makes survival so much fun. The main rule for me is "thinking out of the box" so I can improvise to meet my needs. If I didn't listen and learn from others, I automatically close that box. When we close that box, we turn potential win/win experiences into lose/lose. And that stinks for everyone.

~B.
 
Brian,
First let me say I am impressed by the way you have handled the situation that was dewveloping on this thread. Active moderation like you did is essential to keep the peace and maintain the free and undiscouraged flow of ideas. Thank you very much.

I remember the staggering loads you guys were under, gear, batteries, camera equipment. I vividly remember the river crossing (good use of the garbage bags) and how cold the water was. Honestly, I don't think people understand the pure physical endurance that is required for the trip you guys did, even if the weather had been perfect, which obviously it was freekishly not.

While the skills you guys teach are very important, I think every bit as important is the mind set and situational awareness you displayed.

David,
Your post just lit a light bulb in my head, when you wrote about the sandpaper and camp mat for convex sharpening. I have used a mousepad, but it is not big enough to use a full sheet of sandpaper on and you ahve to work the blade in sections. Then I have used a large piece of styrofoam for a backing, but it did not have enough give to really convex the edge.

The camp mat sounds perfect, it is big and has enough give to get some curvature, which equates to increased durability for heavy use knives.

This is a good example of why the free flow of ideas is important, had David not mentioned something that was obvious to him, I would not have thought of it. This is the true power of a community at work.

Frank,
If you are interested in using the RCM, shoot me an email. My current RCM is a full flat grind, but I also have one of the limited edition hollow grinds on order and I can send them both, however with the Livesay production schedule I have no idea when that will be.

The hollow grind is a bit counter-intuitive on a big knife like this, but I am interested to see how it fares on smaller wood. I have been told it is a fairly shallow hollow grind, but is a bit thinner behind the edge than the flat grind, and has a nice strip of full thickness steel along the top to increase stiffness.
While I would be concerned about durability of a hollow grind/ convex edge knife for chopping hard woods and around knots, it is meant for brush work, and perhaps green limbing. Given what I have seen of Livesay's heat treat, it will be an interesting project.
 
Thanks Knifetester for the compliment...

Frank, I guess it really depends on your use...I've used the Ontario 12" machete for quite some time...and it does everything except heavy chopping or battoning.

I liked the Martindale golok because of the heavier blade balance, and it seems to do better and chopping. The smaller Golok, with the rubber handle, is much thicker...comparable to my Livesay RTAK...

DSC01023.jpg


Cold Steel Khukrie on top, Becker Brute, Golock, Livesay RTAK and at the bottom is the Martindale Golok.

For chopping, even though it has a shorter blade, the "British Golock" actually out did my Livesay RTAK on my limited tests, and much better than the Ontario or Martindale. I would still prefer the Martindale or even the Ontario for general purpose tasks...the thinner blades are much better on light vegetation, I'm not sure what the shorter golock is made of, but it seems like a decent high-carbon steel and holds its edge very well.

For me, the Brute is a decent compromise, but I would much rather have a short machete and hatchet combo for clearing, digging and chopping...in fact, replace my Busse NOe with a 12" Ontario below, and I would be a happy camper :D

Combo.jpg


ROCK6
 
Know that is a complete tool package for the outdoors!

That Helle Fjellkniven is a fine knife, the grip is especially nice and hand filling. No hand fatigue when really hogging off wood. The fit and finish on the Helle knives is realy good as well, better than knives costing many times as much.

The GB Wildlife is another excellent choice, as is the Victorinox.

I can't place the saw (it looks different than my Lapplander, maybe a Gerber?). I think a saw is a very important piece of outdoor kit. HAve you tried a folding bucksaw like the Sawvivor? I find them more effieicent to use than pruning type saws.

You really have a nice collection, and it sounds like you use 'em.
 
That's a Gerber saw...here's the bigger brother...

saws.jpg


Either of these saws are great...what I like about both of them is the ability to carry an extra blade for back up, and both fold up for a easy packed size. The Gerber is for light hikes, the Sawvivor is the family backpacking saw...it allows me to get 6-8" logs sawed up quickly and split for kindling and sizeable cooking firewood.

I promise, I may be overburdened, but never under-knifed :D

ROCK6
 
Brian, Knifetester,

Time for a group hug :D :D

Brian, I absolutely and totally agree with you regarding the importance of keeping our box open. I often say "evolve or die". That's pretty much the same principle. We all have something to teach and something to learn, and staying clear of a stupid "superior" status/attitude keeps the mind open to new ideas.

Criticism is just SO important... I personally appreciate every opinion, even the shocking and brutal ones. When someone calls bullshit on me -- even though I don't want to encourage such behavior -- I (try to) always stop and think "what if he's right ?". That forces me, whether I like it or not, to get back to the essence of things... to my own roots, so to speak, are functionality, efficiency, and the good ole laws of physics.

Confrontation with reality, as in hands-on survival outings, are also a huge humility check for me. There were times in my life where I thought I knew it all, and the old Ma Nature always found her own merciless way to bring me back to reality. Ma Nature is a b!tch with know-it-alls. She's a powerful guide as well.

Knifetester, again, 100% agreed. The free flow of information is how we can access to new information and test it, challenge it, grasp it and, eventually, use it if it fits. Forums like this place (and others) are a great way to share data, and open minds like yourself (and others) make it possible. I'll be looking for your posts from now on.
 
Thanks much for the generous offer KT, but I think my plate is pretty full right now the big blade passarounds coming up over at the KF Passing Lane forum ( we have a Woodman’s Pal passaround in progress, and a Boker AF Smatchet and a Bark River Golok coming soon). You are more than welcome to sign up for these and any of the other passarounds if you like.


Rock,

I have found that the machetes other thin blades, tend to be very finicky when it comes to which woods that they chop well. When all is perfect they chop beautifully, but if the wood is a little too soft they bind, too hard and the fail to penetrate or throw chips, the type of wood, along with the diameter and whether it green or seasoned also can have a big effect. Personal technique also has a big effect.


For me, machete work is more important than chopping since I try to avoid chopping and when I do need to “chop” something I most often use a saw (everything form the little SAK saws to chain saws, one of my favorites being the Gerber Sport saw shown in you photos).


When I tried them side by side for trail clearing and some chopping I found that for my purposes, the 12” D guard Ontario machete edged out the BK9, CS LTC and the Martindale Golok & Paratrooper.




- Frank
 
Confrontation with reality, as in hands-on survival outings, are also a huge humility check for me. There were times in my life where I thought I knew it all, and the old Ma Nature always found her own merciless way to bring me back to reality. Ma Nature is a b!tch with know-it-alls. She's a powerful guide as well.

David, that sure is the truth!

For me, machete work is more important than chopping since I try to avoid chopping and when I do need to “chop” something I most often use a saw (everything form the little SAK saws to chain saws, one of my favorites being the Gerber Sport saw shown in you photos).

Frank,
I use my big knives in much the same way. Very little chopping (felling or bucking, which I do with a saw), rather I use machete and golok type blades for limbing and brush work. I use thicker, more stout blades (the 9-10" class, usually 1/4" thick) for splitting wood with a baton.

I apologize if I sometimes ramble on about saws on a knife forum, but I jst find them to be a very useful tool in the woods. When camping (usually by canoe), my most used blade will be my belt knife, usually a Mora 2000. I use this for all my cooking and most general camp chores, i.e. carving tarp pegs, making notches in wood to use to hang pots, cutting line, etc.

Next most often used is the saw. I saw all my wood to pit length, then split it with my big knife, or sometimes an axe.

I usually camp more in the late spring and early fall, and a fire is essential. Burning small downed wood is not an option as it is usually quite saturated. Getting a fire going with wet wood is usually not successful. Once a fire is raoring, self sustaining, you can throw on wet, soaked wood, but it is gonna smoke a lot and will not throw heat like nice dry wood. When I am lucky to find dead standing cedar I know I am in for a good warm night.

In an emergency you can break wood to length, but it is much easier and safer to split wood that has a flat bottom and top. It sit on the block, and there is no jagged point to stab you if you are comes across the blade accidently.

The least used blade is my folder, which I only use for fine wood work, lansing blisters, etc.

I also carry a farrier's knife by Frost. It is like a crooked knife, I use it to carve out improvised spoons and stuff.
 
Frank...you're speaking my thoughts...I do try to see how the thinner blades chop, but that is not their intended role, hence the reason I carry a more varied assortment of tools. If clearing a site requires more than my 12 Ontario or golock, I'll look for a new site :D

Most of the heavy duty chopping is done by a hatchet (Roselli or GB)...the thinner-bladed machete or golock do wonders on softer vegetation or smaller soft-wood material...but it requires way more effort than a saw or hatchet on bigger/harder wood. Same reason I wouldn't clear a patch of blackberry vines with a hatchet...I try to carry enough of the right tools to mitigate the bigger compromises. Heck, I like the Brute, but even that short blade gets heavy for clearing light vegetation :eek:

And I'm with knifetester on splitting a cleaner (i.e. flatter) surface log, either with a hatchet or via battoning...much safer! That's where a small pack saw really shines.

For some reason, I'm getting better vibes from the Martindale golock for most tasks than that Ontario...but I still like the Ontario for light digging... :confused:

Good feedback from all, thanks :D

ROCK6
 
I am a bit suprised that you guys like the 12" machete so much. I like the longer machetes, 18 or 22", and would use up to a 28" if I could find one stiff enough.

Its not that I need any more power, it is simply a matter of reach. If I am clearing brush, especially light stuff, the wider path of the longer blade allows me to clear a bigger path. As well, in prickery stuff, the longer reach keeps my hand and forearm away from stuff that likes to scratch and poke me. As well, with a longer blade, you can kind of pull when you are chopping, and it makes the machete go through thicker brush with ease. I have heard this refered to as a draw stroke, and have seen it used by South American natives in documentaries.

When limbing with a machete as well as when chopping down saplings, the longer reach allows me to stand up straight. This is more comfortable, easier on the back, and allows for a more efficient swing. This allows me to work longer with less energy expended and most importantly more safely. When people, i.e. me, get tired, they get sloppy and that leads to accidents. I find that I glance blades much more often when I am tired than when I am fresh. I know when I start glancing its time to stop.

Good discussion guys, thank you. This is the kind of stuff I come to a forum for, and it is often hard to find.
 
Actually, I go with the shorter choppers mainly because they're easy to pack...most of my rucks/packs have the side sleeve, and a 12-14" blade will slide in easily and not poke out like a set of ski's :D

Also, on the job side (Army), I wouldn't get too many comments about the smaller Ontario, but if I whipped out my Szabo bush sword, I'd get some raised eyebrows and recommended medication :eek:

I don't think I even have a 18" machete anymore...it's great for around the house, but when packing, a 12" does okay and is easier to carry.

ROCK6
 
Yep, there is the difference. When I am using a machete, I am using it at home or on a job site, so carrying it or apperance has never been a concern. For me, a machete is simply an agriculture or landscaping tool.

When camping I take a small axe or a big knife (it will be the Ranger RD9 and a comparison blade or two this year).

Mostly I camp by canoe or car, so weight is not a critical issue, I try to keep portages short.

When I am hiking, I often scale way down, just carry a SAK, an Opinel saw and a Mora 2000, Gerber Yari, Rat-7 or similar knife. If I have a chopping tool at all, it is the Martindale Golok or a small hatchet.

If I am carrying a stove and a tent which would only be in warm weather, much of the heavy work I do with cutting tools is eliminated. Truthfully, in those situations I could probably get by with just a SAK, but prefer to have some extra tools with me as a safety factor, never know when you will run into Mr. Murphy.
 
Thanks knifetester, just another reason for us to get a canoe.... :D We've done a lot of truck camping, but recently we've been hitting the trails to remote sites...going by water (and canoe) will allow me to carry even more knives and tools...woohooo!!! :D That's the type of camping I did a lot of with my father in my younger days.

I always take a pack stove (love the Optimus Nova), but we still like an open fire, and my wife likes to try new primative cooking recipies...getting the right-sized split wood makes cooking much easier and even for hot coals.

Yep, me and Mr. Murphy go waaay back :D

ROCK6
 
KT,


I have been taken to task for stating this before, but I have never found the need to split wood in the field to get a fire going. Wood dries from the outside in - the wet/green wood is in the center not on the outside (although splitting dose increase surface area so the wood will burn faster). I usually have no problem finding lots of small wood to get a fire going or for some quick coals to heat a meal. The larger diameter wood is harder to come by and is what you need for a fire that will burn for any length of time. The only time I have found wood that was wet on the outside but fairly dry on the inside was with wood that had rotted and sitting on the ground where it had dried out some and then been partially waterlogged again. This wood usually can be broken up with your hand and is not the kind of wood to be starting a fire with anyway.


I see batoning as a technique that is good to know should you need to cut a ridge pole for a shelter, a walking stick, or a game pole and you don’t have a SAK with a saw (or any saw) or a chopping blade but you do have a small fixed blade knife. Personally, I would do about anything to avoid it if I could not afford to damage my knife. (BTW dose anyone know how you are supposed to cut yourself a good baton without a saw? :p)


Just my personal opinion based on my own limited experience, I am not trying to challenge anyone else’s perspective on any of this…. :)


When I used to do a lot of canoe camping trips, I brought along a machete, a large bow saw and a axe, just incase I needed to portage a canoe through some overgrown trail or to clear my way through a fallen tree. Canoeing and car camping were about the only times I would bring an full size axe or a bow saw. If I was going on such a trip today, I would probably take a large fixed blade pruning saw instead of (or in addition to) the bow saw.


Some good points about the 12 vs. 18” Ontarios. I do prefer the 18” for its added reach and power but the 12” is a lot handier to carry and is about more comparable to something like the Martindale Golok or the BK9 in terms of length and weight. I think that Ontario calls the 12 inch a Camp machete, which I think is appropriate for something used for some light camp site or trail clearing, maybe some occasional light chopping, digging, scaling fish etc. When I have a good amount of real machete work to do, I go with the 18 inchers.


Rock,

I can see what you mean about splitting wood for the right size for even coals - makes sense. :D





- Frank
 
I have had many occasions to baton wood to get at the dry interior. Rain, of course, causes wood to get wet from the outside in so the interior may (may) still be dry. Standing dead wood is preferable.
 
If it's standing dead wood, I'll take it! :D

I know I'll have a roaring fire in no time so long as the wood is dry on the inside. ;)



- Frank
 
Frank,

Sounds like we have a different style of camping and different climates. When I am camping splitting wood is not a maybe, its a definite for me.

Here, you are not going to find much dry wood on the forest floor, except maybe in the middle of summer, even then much of it will be wet.

Mostly I use hard woods like maple, oak and elm. There is of course plenty of pine, but it is the worst wood for my uses, it hardly throws any heat, is smoky and burns way to fast. Time spent needlessly tendering a fire is time that could be spent doing more important things, like napping and eating.

I usually select a camp site that I will use the whole season, coming back to it on weekends and when I get a chance during the week. Some sites I have used for several years, or come back to a few years later. I sometimes come back and find that other people have used it, which does not bother me unless they leave a bunch of cans, paper, and other litter for me to clean up.

I usually build a lean to shelter using birch poles for sleeping under, and I pitch a tarp next to it to use for a food prep and craft area. When it is raining lightly, I use this as my kitchen if I have my MSR Whsiperlite gas stove. I always keep a little supply of kindling under my tarp so it is dry when I need it, and ready to go. When my family is with me, they we use tents and use the lean-to as a play and craft area.

I find a dead standing tree, usually about 4-6" in diameter, near my camp site. I take it down with a saw, then buck it up there into manageable lengths. The thicker the wood, the shorter the lengths otherwise it gets too heavy to easily carry and move.

I always use a saw for this. Well seasoned hardwoods like Elm can be a bear to chop through, you just are not going to get the kind of penetration you do with green wood and soft woods. As well, vibration and shaock take a toll on your shoulder and arm, and the hard wood can really stress a thin edged axe or knife if you are not very careful.

A good saw eats right through the wood. With a good bucksaw, I can buzz through a 4-6" round in under a minute. While I might be able to do the same with an axe, it would be a minute of seriously hard work which I try to avoid. Using the saw it is a leisurely pace.

For limbing, I sometimes use a big branch, or the spine of my knife for the small stuff, if it is small and hard it will shatter. This stuff can be hard on an edge, and while I have no doubt my knives can take, it is the same amount of work to break them off and it saves sharpening time. Bigger limbs, I use a big knife and lop them off, though if it is thick and hard enough of a limb, I just use the saw to prune it off. Basically, i do whatever I think will be easiest, or in the alternative the most fun.

I pack the wood back to my camp site and if there is still a good measure of bark on the tree, I will strip enough off (which sometimes is not easy with dead wood and other times just falls right off). I set the bark aside, it won't burn as it is usually very wet, I use it to put on top of my split wood pile, shingled to help keep the rain off.

I use the first round (nearest the ground and usually the thickest and heaviest) as a block, and use my big knife and spilt the logs into useable thickness. On a 6" diameter log, I will usally split the wood several times to make wood small enough to get fires going and for quick lunch fires, etc.

Splitting the wood is not that hard hard work, I use a rather heavy mallet like baton and go slow. For me, this is much easier than walking all over the place looking for wood, carrying it back to camp, etc. Also, when using small woods (finger thickness stuff you find), it seems that I am always on the search for wood, and this takes away from my napping, reading, playing with my family and dog, eating time, etc.

For canoe portages, usually the trails are well cleared, as I am not in any super rural spots. In fact, in most areas I am in, I can still get cell phone reception, which may seem silly to some, but when you are camping with your family, it becomes very important if there is a medical emergency.
 
Knifetester,

Obviously, you've been there and done it. However, I can't resist but to add my 2¢ :D

Agreed that a good bucksaw can make life easier in the bush (if you don't mind carrying it). Bucking wood is lots of work with an axe, and since most of the time you have to cut at least two "V's" in it, you loose a lot of big wood chips. By the end of the day, those wood chips represent quite a few logs, and are mostly lost. I've got a trick, however, for smaller trees (say up to 4"-5" diameter, depending on how hard the wood is) : I just hold them up straight, the big part on the ground, well away from my feet. Then I grab whichever chopper I carry that day (large blade, machete, hatchet or even light axe), and I hit the trunk 45° from the grain. I then rotate it, and chop again, to make a few cuts around the trunk (all 45° from the grain). 4-5 blows are usually enough to weaken the tree enough, and then I break it (I just put one end on a boulder or whatever and step on it). Total time : about 20 secs. Yeeehaw ! :D

Careful though : don't let your legs in the follow through zone, and be careful with bounces.

Another point : I used to underestimate pine like you seem to do. When green or wet, it's indeed a very poor fire wood. However when you can find those grey, bark-free, dry, standing dead ones, it heats very well. As I type, I'm burning such standing dead pine in my wood stove and it heats perfectly well (the whole house is warm). Agreed, however, that it burns quite fast, and smokes a little more than maple or oak (which, when dry and barkless, virtually don't smoke at all). Another point, standing dead pines often contain fatwood, especially when the bugs ate it at mid height. The pine keeps on producing pitch but it doesn't reach the top of the tree, and concentrates in the lower parts. A 8"-10" pine tree like that can contain up to 150 pounds of extremely fat wood, which burns like rocket fuel. It's great as a fire starter (cut it SMALL), or if you want 10' high flames... :eek:

As I mostly cut standing dead pine for firewood (it's the most widespread tree species around here, with a little bit of oak, which of course is better), I'm piling fat wood behind the house those days. I've got about 500 pounds of it, and growing... When you get out of the house it actually smells like turpentine :)

Cheers,

David
 
Your sure right about fatwood (resin saturated wood), it burns hot as heck. I would worry about using that straight in a wood stove or fireplace, may ignite deposits in the chimney or pipes.

Great stuff for fire starting. I used to buy a bag of it every couple of years from Lee Valley, then I started gathering my own. IF you find the right tree, you can get enough for like a lifetime supply of fire starting.

Using it straight in a campfire, now that would be a hot fire!

Do you have trouble with popping, shooting embers into your living room?
 
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