Becker Brute Concensus

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, a polished edge is less prone to damage and dulling then a course edge in chopping. The micro-serrations that make a course edge nice for slicing meat will tear out when chopping wood, and thus the edge will dull rapidly.
 
With this being a survival/utility blade,



While a polished edge may be better for chopping, Ever try to cut rope?

Or meat? Like skinning game,

I`m just not sure that it is the best survival edge. But I`m learning, so I`ll listen for a while.

At one time I tried to get everything razor sharp, but a good , somewhat toothy edge is proving to be a preferred edge for me right now on my workhorse type blades.

Good topic
 
Fish,
What level of edge finish I use depends on the tool. As you noted, slightly toothy edges are more aggressive and better for slicing, while high polished edges are better suited to pushcuts and chopping.

IN the context of a large survival knife, like the Brute, BK9 or RD9, I really prefer a high polished edge. My priomary use of these toools is limbing and splitting with some light chopping between.

For smaller jobs, like cutting rope and meat, I would use my folder (a SAK or Stockman, with one balde very aggressive and the others high polished) or my belt knife.

ON the Mora 2000 I polish the single edge bevel portion to a high polish using leather and lee valley polishing compound, and the front portion (flat grind, distal taper) I sharpen on the Spyderco 15 degree brown stones. This gives a microbevel for added durability and a tooth edge for slicing. Almost like packing two blades in one.

Overall, the most versatile edge finishes for for me are either Spyderco medium (brown) or DMT Diamond X-Fine. (note these are about the same level of edge finish despite the makers ratings.)

Also, when slicing with a thin, high polished edge try adding a bit of downward pressure or cant the blade so it presents the edge at an angle to the material being cut.
 
I keep small Victorinox paring knives in my BK7 and BK9 sheaths. There’s enough room to slide the parers (in the plastic pouches that they come in), between the back of the kydex sheath liner and green propex covers. The paring knives are mainly for camp food prep and light utility, but since I generally sharpen the Beckers on SharpMaker white stones, I choose serrated edges for the paring knives, just in case I came across something that the Becker edges were too polished for.



- Frank
 
That is an excellent idea Frank. I use Victorinox paring knives in the kitchen quite a bit, I got a few from SMKW on special and they are great thin knives.

I keep a SAK (Rucksack) in the pocket on a big knife sheath for the same purpose.
 
knifetester said:
I am suprised that the CT has thinner edge than the Brute.
Click to expand...
This is one of the reasons that people should when possile be specific about the grind when talking about performance. The origional Machax and Brute when Camillus introduced them a few years back were *very* thick and obtuse and a Camp Tramp would vastly out cut them and readily out chop them uniformly, it would not even be a close comparison.

This is really important on production knives as I have seen edge thicknesses which varied by more than 50% from one blade to another, with such variations you will get one person who thinks the blade cuts very well, and then another who thinks it is horrible. It also is useful to say what you think doesn't cut well, or what cuts better to put your comments in perspective.

Awhile after I used the Machax, there were comments that the edges were reprofiled to a thinner stock profile, this would no doubt raise the cutting ability, a Brute with an edge profile similar to the Becker Combat Bowie should outchop the Camp Tramp, of course in making such a statement you have to take into account the style of the user.

It is ridiculus to say "bullshit", a heavier blade like the Brute only works well in a style which brings the full force of the blade into play, the wood also has to be very stiff to take the impact of the blade, you could readily outchop the Brute (even if the edge was thinned radically since I used the Machax) with a large butcher knife using very fast wrist swings on 1-2" alders because the Brutes excessive momentum would bend the wood rather than cut it.

Blades also handle differently in soft vs hard woods, a very thin edge but thick primary grind can compare well in hard woods as the cuts are shallow, but then move to pine where the penetration goes 2"+ and now the thick primary grind will hold it back.

-Cliff
 
Just out of curiosity Cliff,

would the same butcher knife outchop the Ct as well?

My Ct was not that great of a chopper until I spent time reprofiling, same as with the brute,

The point being is when I go outside and use the knives side by side(with comparable edges), on various types of wood, my Ct will not outchop my Brute, and my Ct is one of my favorites.

I look forward to hearing whether or not the butcher knife will/would outchop the CT, and if we are going to stack the deck,

Would the same butcher knife not outchop the battle mistress using the same logic(you know, thick edge and all)?

I also have and really like my battle mistress, but it will not outchop my RTAK.

Thats various types of wood, not just knots, here in the Carolina`s the knots are not that big of a problem, so really does not effect the comparison.
 
Kt,

Good point on having the polished edge on the chopper and leaving the slicing chores to better suited edges and tasks.

The idea of the paring knife makes sense, that and a sak and you would have most chores/tasks covered,

thanks
 
scfishr said:
would the same butcher knife outchop the Ct as well?
Click to expand...
On light springy wood with a fast wrist swing yes, the CT would do better than the Brute due to the higher flat grind, and more acute edge, but both would be readily outclassed by a traditional machete, large butcher knife, or a Leuko works well here also, I have a large one I usually use in the kitchen that I would pick over the CT for light vegetation.

If you are comparing a reprofiled Brute you might want to include that in any such statements, you can readily effect the chopping performance 25-50% by altering the edge angle. It is obvious then that stock performances are going to be radically different. You could simply flat grind the Brute and it would then readily outchop the CT across the board.

You are however then not really comparing a "Brute" to a Camp Tramp but rather some kind of custom you have made.

Does anyone know what the stock factory edges are on the Brute and Machax now, I heard they were adjusted but never did see any firm specs? Are they inline with the CU/7 and CU/9?

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I think that your product loyalty is great.

It was never a secret that the CT and the Brute had been reprofiled.

The point that was being made was exactly that: All things being equal, is the CT a better chopper? and the answer is no.
 
cucharadeddragon,

There is a Brute (user) for sale in the exchange, great price,check it out. :)
 
scfishr said:
It was never a secret that the CT and the Brute had been reprofiled.
Click to expand...
There was no mention of it in your origional post, and as noted, once you alter the profiles significantly you are no longer comparing those knives but custom variants. Just consider if I took a Brute and adjusted the edge so it didn't cut well, would it then be sensible for me to compare it to other knives and note that it was outperformed, of course not people would rightly cry foul, well the opposite is true as well.

The point that was being made was exactly that: All things being equal, is the CT a better chopper? and the answer is no.
Click to expand...
With the edge on the Brute similar to the edge on the Machax I used, the CT would readily outchop the Brute on most woods, as the edge profile is more acute and it has a higher flat grind, if the user went light with the blades it would more heavily favor the CT as the Brute's ability will come from its higher inertia which means a lot of force needs to be used, and even then and even with a thinner profile, as noted in the above, the CT would still outchop the Brute on a variety of lighter, springier woods.

This doesn't even deal with the fact that people have had problems with the Becker grips which would also effect performance. There are simple way too many variables to even begin to justify the personal attack you made. Share your knowledge, ask for clarification certainly, but to just jump to conclusions like you did does nothing but hurt the forum by making people hesitant to share their opinion.

But yes, if you repfile the Brute, put a higher convex edge on it, you can raise the performance to probably 75-85% of a GB wildlife hatchet on most woods, in this case it will readily outchop the CT (which hovers around 50-60%) and approach the ability of the BR. You could also of course slim down the edge on the BR, put a very high ABS style edge on it and it would pull ahead of the Brute, once again though this isn't a Brute vs CT/BR comparison, it is strictly a geometry comparision, which can be interesting of course. But ignoring all of this like you did does nothing except try to start a fight.

I could take a Martindale machete, put a high edge grind on it, sharpen it up to a hair popping edge and then compare it to a stock RTAK, not mention I modifed the Martindale, and note that the RTAK was out performed across the board. This hardly seems like a sensible approach to me. Now if I wanted to make a point about geometry then its cool, I have in fact done exactly this before, but in such cases you have to be clear what you have done and to what extent, otherwise you can mislead people into thinking the actual stock performance is the same.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

As some have brought this topic up here could you elaborate on it.

Having a convex edge highly polished using strop and SIC .05 compound, would that make the edge more durable to chopping? Or do micro serrations make a difference either way?

It does not slice very well but my blade is used 99% as a chopper so this is not the issue realy.

Thanks,

Skam
 
skammer said:
...highly polished using strop and SIC .05 compound, would that make the edge more durable to chopping?
Click to expand...
Yes, the more polished the higher the durability and the sharper the edge the more durable for chopping and other impacts. Mike did a lot of work looking at rough edges and slicing, and they excell there but microteeth will not only lower push cutting performance but will also be much more prone to damage and when they do break off you lose much more steel, so the blade wears quicker.

For some machetes though and some other pseudo-choppers you can benefit to leaving the edge coarse if you cut with a lot of draw on grassy and other soft vegetation. With them you really don't care about blade wear, and they are so easy to just file sharp that often I leave them with this finish with just a slightly secondary edge bevel usually with a small DMT duafold (medium/fine) depending on if I am planning to cut more grass or wood.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
There was no mention of it in your origional post, and as noted, once you alter the profiles significantly you are no longer comparing those knives but custom variants. Just consider if I took a Brute and adjusted the edge so it didn't cut well, would it then be sensible for me to compare it to other knives and note that it was outperformed, of course not people would rightly cry foul, well the opposite is true as well.


With the edge on the Brute similar to the edge on the Machax I used, the CT would readily outchop the Brute on most woods, as the edge profile is more acute and it has a higher flat grind, if the user went light with the blades it would more heavily favor the CT as the Brute's ability will come from its higher inertia which means a lot of force needs to be used, and even then and even with a thinner profile, as noted in the above, the CT would still outchop the Brute on a variety of lighter, springier woods.


This doesn't even deal with the fact that people have had problems with the Becker grips which would also effect performance. There are simple way too many variables to even begin to justify the personal attack you made. Share your knowledge, ask for clarification certainly, but to just jump to conclusions like you did does nothing but hurt the forum by making people hesitant to share their opinion.

But yes, if you repfile the Brute, put a higher convex edge on it, you can raise the performance to probably 75-85% of a GB wildlife hatchet on most woods, in this case it will readily outchop the CT (which hovers around 50-60%) and approach the ability of the BR. You could also of course slim down the edge on the BR, put a very high ABS style edge on it and it would pull ahead of the Brute, once again though this isn't a Brute vs CT/BR comparison, it is strictly a geometry comparision, which can be interesting of course. But ignoring all of this like you did does nothing except try to start a fight.

I could take a Martindale machete, put a high edge grind on it, sharpen it up to a hair popping edge and then compare it to a stock RTAK, not mention I modifed the Martindale, and note that the RTAK was out performed across the board. This hardly seems like a sensible approach to me. Now if I wanted to make a point about geometry then its cool, I have in fact done exactly this before, but in such cases you have to be clear what you have done and to what extent, otherwise you can mislead people into thinking the actual stock performance is the same.

-Cliff
Click to expand...


Cliff,

you don`t need me to discredit your work here.

You may be a metalurgist or whatever, but a wordsmith you`re not.

The Ct that I used for comparison had recieved the same reprofiling to enhance its performance, your analogy drips.

So, my variant CT will not outchop my variant Brute.

My assymetrical ground battle mistress will not outchop my Variant RTAK (unless concret blocks and/or knots are involved)


And if flies had machine guns, frogs wouldn`t f!@k with `em


Now,As for your mothering/chastising me for past events that have been corrected for a while, If you would like, I will reciprocate, but I would rather not. You don`t need any help.

I was not trying to start a fight, I did however do a bad job of making a point. There is a difference, once remedied.

A significant part of the "conversation"( more than one post) was about simple mods to enhance the performance of the Becker/swamp rat/ontario
products. You are accusing me of misrepresentation by virtue of only reading one of several posts, which is misrepresentation in and of itself.


Your one sided representation of Busse/swamp rat products makes me want to sell the ones I have. Keep up the good work.

In the future, regarding this matter, I will exchange comments through PM`s, but this public display is over for me.
 
Hey Fish,

When you earn as much credibililty as Cliff I may listen.

Until then you are a child who can't be wrong or corrected by someone whos forgotten more about blades than you will ever know.

The fact Cliff favors one or 2 makers is based on science and experience none of which you have in comparrison. Facts are somone has to be first and many cheer for the underdog.

Next time you are in brain surgery ask for a third rate surgeon. :rolleyes:

Skam
 
scfishr said:
. . .
The Ct that I used for comparison had recieved the same reprofiling to enhance its performance, your analogy drips.

So, my variant CT will not outchop my variant Brute.
Click to expand...

Which tells me zip about the stock products -- yes?


Speaking only for myself, it's a shame when otherwise intersting discussions devolve into personal attacks.
 
Is there some written law that says you can`t resharpen your knife around here?

Do you ever watch nascar? Its all about fords and chevy`s, but the cars they use are not stock fords and chevys.

The topic of this thread was a consencus on the Becker Brute, are we not obliged to dicuss the simple mod`s that make it shine, the fact that it can be purchased used at a great price.And that with those mod`s it can equal or surpass more expensive blades.

I do not remember any one saying "out of the box" or "stock". Which is the only way the opposing argument holds water. "If this and If that, and if whatever"


And what personal attack?

What about bandwagons?

Rep points: LOL
 
scfishr said:
Is there some written law that says you can`t resharpen your knife around here?

Do you ever watch nascar? Its all about fords and chevy`s, but the cars they use are not stock fords and chevys.

The topic of this thread was a consencus on the Becker Brute, are we not obliged to dicuss the simple mod`s that make it shine, the fact that it can be purchased used at a great price.And that with those mod`s it can equal or surpass more expensive blades.

I do not remember any one saying "out of the box" or "stock". Which is the only way the opposing argument holds water. "If this and If that, and if whatever"


And what personal attack?

What about bandwagons?
Click to expand...

A. "bandwagons": I own three Brutes and no - zero - nadda - Swamp Rats.

B. I would expect, from my experience, that a Brute modified as per your description, would cut exactly as C. Stamp says it would. I have thinned the edges on two (leaving the Blackjack example as it is) and they chop firewood well -- not as well as some of my khukuris, but well. It is not a tool I would select to cut light vegitation. I am not sure you have said otherwise.

C. You and C. Stamp are talking past each other - perhaps deliberately. I don't know. My observation that your comments tell us nothing about stock knives says nothing about the accuracy of your observations on modified knives. Why do you apparently think it does? I put a question mark after my comment. Do you disagree with my observation on stock knives? If so fine.

D. What personal attacks? Your personal attacks on C. Stamp and skammer's personal attack on you. Neither adds to the weight of your respective arguments.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top