Becker speculation...

B

Bob W

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The speculation on this forum indicates that Ethan Becker may no longer do business with Camillus, Camillus has stopped producing his products, and the Becker line could move to a different company for production.

If the above scenarios is true...
I'm pondering a couple of issues that haven't been discussed.

First, would the Camillus Beckers be collectible? I think so. A similar thing happened with the Ek Knives; as their production moved from one factory to the next, the previous knives became more collectible and valuable.

Second, would there be any quality difference between the old and the new manufacturers? Overall Camillus is only a mid-tier knife maker. If the production went to a higher-grade company, how could the Becker line be improved on to distinguish the new maker? Better materials? Better QC? Better actual build quality?

Third, would the new manufacturer charge higher prices? For example, the Ka-Bar USMC sells for 25% more than the Camillus USMC, despite identical design and materials. So would KaBar also ask 25% more for the Becker knives? I think the new manufacturer would have to sell at higher prices in order to pay for the initial investment in tooling, whatever product improvements are made, and just because Camillus in general was a low-priced producer.

-Bob
 
All good questions. Time will tell.

I do hope the new company keeps the steel or even improves on it. I also hope, as others have suggested, that the new line brings back the Machax and the Magnum Camp. And maybe even something new that Ethan has dreamed up?

As for the collectible nature of this stuff, I'm not so sure. Camillus chugged out a LOT of Beckers--a lot more than, say, Blackjack. I expect some price increase, especially during the interim while Ethan is getting his line going elsewhere. But once new Beckers start coming out, the Camillus stuff might not seem quite as "necessary" to people who are buying the knives to use. Again, time will tell.

I actually put back some spares of all the models I have for use. However, I'm not expecting any great returns on the investment. If anything, maybe I'll have a spare ten years down the road if I wear out my Combat Bowie.
 
That's still significantly below the original m.s.r.p. of $96.

Hard to figure the value of something that's "used but like new". A knife has either been used or it hasn't; it's either been carried or it hasn't; it's either been sharpened or it hasn't. And if any of those things have happened to it, then it can't be "like new."

BK9 is shown as still in stock for $58 at 1sks. I think perhaps some of the bidders are emotionally caught up in the auction-action. :)

-Bob
 
Lots of merchants show the Beckers in stock. Wishful thinking maybe.

That knife on FleaBay (disclaimer: it's not mine) looks new to me.

And $73+ is still not a bad price for a Combat Bowie at this stage in the game. Not great, but not bad.

If I were looking, I'd pay as much for a new or like-new Combat Bowie, Brute, Patrol Machete, or (with a little luck) Machax.

If the auction knife cracks $100, then it'll get my attention.

Anyone tried *really* finding one on the web lately? I have, and it ain't easy.
 
I'd say "don't change anything." for me the appeal of the Becker line was it's place in the grand scheme. Good design, decent materials, better than base quality. priced higher than a condor, but lower than a swamp rat. If the price jumps too much, I would just as soon save the extra $25-$50 (plus the becker price increase) and get the swamp rat.
 
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attachment.php
 
I do hope the new company keeps the steel or even improves on it.
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Here's a bombshell for everyone! You know how Camillus advertised " Exclusive high carbon steel (0170-6C)" for the Becker line? No such animal as 0170-6C. Purely made up. Real steel used? Carbon V as in Cold Steel Carbon V. So being that Cold Steel has went overseas for their carbon series, don't expect anyone to use Carbon V in the next Becker series. In addition, all carbon series knives made by Camillus was carbon v and not 1095 as advertised in the last 8 years or so. Thought you may want to know.
 
knifeworker said:
Here's a bombshell for everyone! You know how Camillus advertised " Exclusive high carbon steel (0170-6C)" for the Becker line? No such animal as 0170-6C. Purely made up. Real steel used? Carbon V as in Cold Steel Carbon V. So being that Cold Steel has went overseas for their carbon series, don't expect anyone to use Carbon V in the next Becker series. In addition, all carbon series knives made by Camillus was carbon v and not 1095 as advertised in the last 8 years or so. Thought you may want to know.
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Useful information; but I think most of us on BFC knew that Carbon V and the steel used in the Beckers was one and the same; and that it wasn't 1095.

(There have been quite a few threads on the subject.)
 
Here's a bombshell for everyone!
Click to expand...

Um ... you're a bit confused. It would be more accurate to say something like "no such animal as Carbon V, it was just a registered trademark used to describe such steels as 0170-6C."
 
rifon2 said:
Useful information; but I think most of us on BFC knew that Carbon V and the steel used in the Beckers was one and the same; and that it wasn't 1095.

(There have been quite a few threads on the subject.)
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Bingo. 0170-6C or Carbon V. I'm not sure which nomenclature came first, but it's six one way, half-a-dozen the other.

I've got it in a buttload of Beckers, a Cold Steel Master Hunter, and (I think) a Camillus-made MooreMaker stockman. It's good steel with a good heat treat regardless of what you call it.
 
Advertising is not allowed on this forum.
-Cougar Allen :{)
Spam Song
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PS I was also kicked out of hell for selling ice cubes, that’s why I joined the Marine Corp.

My apologies if I offended anyone I didn’t mean to be a salesman.:grumpy:

Tom
Chestnut Ridge Knife Shop
 
Nimick said:
I'd say "don't change anything." for me the appeal of the Becker line was it's place in the grand scheme. Good design, decent materials, better than base quality. priced higher than a condor, but lower than a swamp rat. If the price jumps too much, I would just as soon save the extra $25-$50 (plus the becker price increase) and get the swamp rat.
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I am not a knife maker, worker, or affilated in any way with Becker or Camillus. I am simply a member of the buying public interested in Becker knives. I like them and will be loyal to the line if they can be manufactured to the same or better standards. However, I may not be so interested if I see a significant price jump. The knife market is huge and there is an incredible selection out there to chose from. I wish to stay loyal to the Becker line, but the door can swing both ways. I wish BK&T well and will be watching to see if they land on their feet.
 
Lots of merchants show the Beckers in stock. Wishful thinking maybe.
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Yep, at least that's the case at 1sks. I placed an order last night, not really expecting them to have the items, but they are shown as available and there was no problem at "checkout," so I had my fingers crossed. Telephoning 1sks this morning, it turns out that every item I ordered was out of stock. Not having the online store properly linked to current inventory is a poor business practice, if you ask me.

-Bob
 
A web store owner can show the product as something they carry but have quantity avalible: 0 and or $0.00 for the price if they are out of stock.

I do not dabble in the following practice but here is why they do what they do.

Once you order a knife your in their data base. After they get knives in, you may get a call asking if you still want the knife. Or, if there is no contact between you and the seller the knife may just show-up at your house after they get it back in stock ie: back order.

This could be good or bad depending on how you look at it. It is bad if you are expecting a knife in a reasonable time frame, good if you eventually get a hard to find knife.

My method is better I dont list a knife that I dont have but I do make a list of customers names and the knife that they are looking for. This seems to be the best way and I dont think I have ever made anyone mad doing business this way.
 
My method is better I dont list a knife that I dont have but I do make a list of customers names and the knife that they are looking for. This seems to be the best way and I dont think I have ever made anyone mad doing business this way.
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I think that's an excellent system.

And I don't mind that some dealers advertise items not actually in stock, as long as they're clear it's not currently available. AG Russell, SMKW, Knifeworks, and many other dealers show out-of-stock items, but mark them as such.

Like I said, I wasn't suprised those items were out of stock. But it should have been made clear at some point before checkout.

-Bob
 
Guyon said:
Bingo. 0170-6C or Carbon V. I'm not sure which nomenclature came first, but it's six one way, half-a-dozen the other.

I've got it in a buttload of Beckers, a Cold Steel Master Hunter, and (I think) a Camillus-made MooreMaker stockman. It's good steel with a good heat treat regardless of what you call it.
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Carbon V definately came first. It was the brainchild of the Metal God, Dan Maragni, & was, in my opinion, what put Cold Steel on the map all those years ago.

When Cold Steel came to Camillus to make their carbon steel knives, they did not want to pay for the vast amount of steel that had to be purchased in order to have a custom steel made to their specifications.
Consequently Cold Steel agreed that Camillus could also use the steel (& pay them a royalty, I believe) but could not call it Carbon V.

I came up with the name 0170-6C, based on an almost close (but NOT) steel produced by Sharron Steel called 0170-6.

All this is historical trivia.

The real issue for those who understand is Heat Treatment!

The reason that the Camillus Beckers perform so well is that Dan Maragni set up a system of heat treatment at Camillus for the Cold Steel knives, & oversaw almost every batch of knives produced. What we learnt about heat treating Cold Steel seeped over to the Becker knives.
All that is now lost forever!

In my humble opinion, the values of the Camillus Beckers may not rise significantly in the collector market, but for those interested in a high performance user, get them while you can. Without Maragni's methods, I don't care what a future maker of Beckers uses, they will just be well designed carbon steel knives covered in powder coat!

I dearly hope I am wrong & the new maker will consider trying to improve their methods. Time will tell..............
 
Something I read stated that Case also uses this steel calling it Chrome Vanadium steel. True?

And I could not agree more that the heat treat and tempering processes make all the difference in the world in the characteristics and usefulness of a particular steel. 1095 is often derided nowdays, as is 420, but both all are great cutlery steels when manufacturers go to the trouble to properly treat and temper them for their intended uses.

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
Something I read stated that Case also uses this steel calling it Chrome Vanadium steel. True?

And I could not agree more that the heat treat and tempering processes make all the difference in the world in the characteristics and usefulness of a particular steel. 1095 is often derided nowdays, as is 420, but both all are great cutlery steels when manufacturers go to the trouble to properly treat and temper them for their intended uses.

Codger
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Codger,

CV steel is readily available.
Carbon V is not. You need to have Maragni's recipe, and the ability to buy 120,000 pounds at a time to buy a complete "heat" of steel.

Also, I believe you are totally correct about 1095 & 420!!

I would much rather have a beautifully heat treated 420 blade than a rush job on a S30V blade. Every time!

The interesting thing is how different the methods are for heat treating Stainless Steel & Carbon Steel.

Hi tech atmosphere controlled furnaces with computer controls can do a great job on stainless, not so with carbon!!

Best methods to heat treat Carbon blade steels have changed little in 100-200 years! If a knife factory is using modern methods to heat treat carbon steel, IMHO it is a compromise, & the best potential for the steel is missed.
 
Phil Gibbs said:
Carbon V definately came first. It was the brainchild of the Metal God, Dan Maragni, & was, in my opinion, what put Cold Steel on the map all those years ago.

When Cold Steel came to Camillus to make their carbon steel knives, they did not want to pay for the vast amount of steel that had to be purchased in order to have a custom steel made to their specifications.
Consequently Cold Steel agreed that Camillus could also use the steel (& pay them a royalty, I believe) but could not call it Carbon V.

I came up with the name 0170-6C, based on an almost close (but NOT) steel produced by Sharron Steel called 0170-6.

All this is historical trivia.

The real issue for those who understand is Heat Treatment!

The reason that the Camillus Beckers perform so well is that Dan Maragni set up a system of heat treatment at Camillus for the Cold Steel knives, & oversaw almost every batch of knives produced. What we learnt about heat treating Cold Steel seeped over to the Becker knives.
All that is now lost forever!

In my humble opinion, the values of the Camillus Beckers may not rise significantly in the collector market, but for those interested in a high performance user, get them while you can. Without Maragni's methods, I don't care what a future maker of Beckers uses, they will just be well designed carbon steel knives covered in powder coat!

I dearly hope I am wrong & the new maker will consider trying to improve their methods. Time will tell..............
Click to expand...

Great post, Phil. Thanks for taking the time to pass this information along.
 
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