Beginner to knife sharpening - a few questions

[Jtsessions]

This is one of the best learning Q&A thread! If both of you don't mind, please link it into the sticky (Mag's one).

Martin,
Even for me, a lot of the advice here is a good reminder of the do and don'ts.
Thank you! :thumbup:

Jtsession,

Thank you for taking the tips to practice & ask further.

I recalled sometime back an OP that simply ask, then argue, and ask again, but never (deduction from the way he/she asked) try and put effort to learn. Sharpening needs to be experienced then thought of, not staying in pure theoritical realm.

Good luck in your journey. You'll find it challenging and rewarding with several A-HA moment

Sure thing, and I'm glad that this is a positive influence! Thank you for your encouragement!

Rope is one, any job that will dull an edge quickly no matter what edge it has (no point in constantly sharpening to a higher level), applications that involve cutting fibrous, low density materials. I discovered at work through trial and error that a coarse edge lasted a lot longer cutting clay-coated heavy papers. Have to experiment a bit, but any time a more refined edge won't perform well at a task, or dulls quickly, you should be considering a change of strategy. Instead of more polishing, maybe more of a draw cut will sever the material in question with less pressure and less down time.

To me, a clean edge is one that's been formed well on the stones, and deburred to the limit of whatever abrasive was used to grind the edge. Some stropping on plain paper or hard leather to finish will bring it up a notch or two without eliminating the edge irregularities. These types of edges perform with less efficiency when used to press cut, so just need to be aware of the intended task. In general (IMHO), a medium grit edge in the 800-1200 range will work best across the widest variety, with more or less finish falling into a range where the edge has a specific purpose (chopping, carving, shaving on the one end - hard use, low pressure draw cutting on the other).

This thread got into the topic a bit more, I added some micrographs for visual comparison.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...th-edge-aggression!?highlight=edge+aggression

Oh, I see! That makes sense, as I'd heard that blade irregularities acted like serrations on coarser stones.

I ordered some DMT-3. It's diamond paste with 1, 3, and 6 microns to them. The strop that I'm getting is two-sided, with what's described as a "suede side" and a "smooth side." Any idea which two pastes I should apply and to which sides for maximum polish/push cutting sharpness? I've seen some people get mirror-finished edges like that, and it looks amazing!

Speaking of mirror finishes, is it possible to get one on the whole blade using only sandpaper, polishing by hand? Everywhere that I see info on mirror finishes online, people talk about applying them with buffing wheels and compound. I took the teflon finish off of my recon 1 with 220 grit sandpaper and some flitz, but the surface is heavily scratched. I was thinking about working up through 400/600/800/1200/1500/2000 grit sandpaper, then stropping the entire blade with the dmt-3 compounds to try to get it as close as possible, but I'm not sure what effect it would have.


Thanks again for all the help, mate I already feel so much better in such a short span of time, and I really appreciate the distillation of all that you've learned like this.

 

[HeavyHanded]

This is one of the best learning Q&A thread! If both of you don't mind, please link it into the sticky (Mag's one).

Martin,
Even for me, a lot of the advice here is a good reminder of the do and don'ts.
Thank you! :thumbup:

Jtsession,

Thank you for taking the tips to practice & ask further.

I recalled sometime back an OP that simply ask, then argue, and ask again, but never (deduction from the way he/she asked) try and put effort to learn. Sharpening needs to be experienced then thought of, not staying in pure theoritical realm.

Good luck in your journey. You'll find it challenging and rewarding with several A-HA moment

Chris, thank you

Always good when you have to organize your thoughts coherently enough to share them, especially when so much of sharpening is based on feel and visual observation. And as you say, many threads of this sort fall into a hole of pained responses to vague questions, finally to be covered by a few shovels of advice to just get a guided system...

 

[HeavyHanded]

Sure thing, and I'm glad that this is a positive influence! Thank you for your encouragement!



Oh, I see! That makes sense, as I'd heard that blade irregularities acted like serrations on coarser stones.

I ordered some DMT-3. It's diamond paste with 1, 3, and 6 microns to them. The strop that I'm getting is two-sided, with what's described as a "suede side" and a "smooth side." Any idea which two pastes I should apply and to which sides for maximum polish/push cutting sharpness? I've seen some people get mirror-finished edges like that, and it looks amazing!

Speaking of mirror finishes, is it possible to get one on the whole blade using only sandpaper, polishing by hand? Everywhere that I see info on mirror finishes online, people talk about applying them with buffing wheels and compound. I took the teflon finish off of my recon 1 with 220 grit sandpaper and some flitz, but the surface is heavily scratched. I was thinking about working up through 400/600/800/1200/1500/2000 grit sandpaper, then stropping the entire blade with the dmt-3 compounds to try to get it as close as possible, but I'm not sure what effect it would have.


Thanks again for all the help, mate I already feel so much better in such a short span of time, and I really appreciate the distillation of all that you've learned like this.

I would want to only use the smooth side, and case it first:

Step by step:
1. Wet the leather. No need to soak it for any length of time. Running it under the tap for a second or two, front and back, is enough.
2. VERY IMPORTANT - let the leather dry for a while. Before you wet it it was a light tan color. Water darkened it a lot. Let it dry until it's about half-way back to its original color. At THAT point it will be almost as squishy as modeling clay.
3. Use a large diameter rolling pin, the heavier the better. Marble pastry pins are great for this, but even a piece of 3-4" PCV pipe will work. Now start rolling on the smooth side of the leather. Roll from end to end evenly, bearing down on the roller. Do this for 4-5 minutes, not just one minute. This will firm up the leather. If you are going to use this for a bare leather strop, roll it for 10-15 minutes. The rolling will force more silicates to migrate to the top of the leather.
4. Let it dry naturally, then glue to a backing or use as a hanging strop.

Keep in mind that any natural oil... ANY oil... is going to soften the leather. Makes no difference if it's Lexol or Olive oil. Lexol is more compatible with leather. Olive oil won't hurt it. But both will soften the leather... Soooo... if you really want a good firm strop, but need to put some sort of strop conditioner on it, dab it on a finger tip and rub it out well. Don't paint it on with a brush, or rub it on with a saturated cloth, or pour it on and rub away the excess. None of the above will harm the leather, but they will significantly soften the leather more than is needed to preserve it. The strop conditioner I use on my grandfathers old hanging strop has the consistency of thicker Vaseline, and I use less than a pea-size for the entire strop once a year. My grandfather used it every day as did my dad. I'm guessing that this stop is about 75 years old... and the leather looks brand new.


Stitchawl

I'd think the 6 and 1 would be most handy, the 6 for a touch-up and bridge to the 1 for a final polish. It makes a lot of difference what the strop surface is, so do yourself a big favor and follow the above instructions unless the leather comes hard, hard, hard.

You can polish it up by hand just as you've described but will be time consuming - most do it on powered equipment for this reason. You'll learn a bunch by tackling it though, so don't let me discourage you. I have limited experience doing this for cosmetics, hopefully a polish guru will chime in.

Martin

 

[Jtsessions]

I would want to only use the smooth side, and case it first:

I'd think the 6 and 1 would be most handy, the 6 for a touch-up and bridge to the 1 for a final polish. It makes a lot of difference what the strop surface is, so do yourself a big favor and follow the above instructions unless the leather comes hard, hard, hard.

Why only the smooth side? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by casing it first, as well.

You can polish it up by hand just as you've described but will be time consuming - most do it on powered equipment for this reason. You'll learn a bunch by tackling it though, so don't let me discourage you. I have limited experience doing this for cosmetics, hopefully a polish guru will chime in.

Martin

Gotcha! I think I'll give it a shot, as it certainly can't hurt, and even if I can't get a mirror finish, anything'll look better than the mess of scratches that I have now. I've heard things elsewhere that have implied that I should go a certain direction every other grit (vertical strokes for one grit, then horizontal for the next, then diagonal....etc.) Any idea if this is true/why?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Why only the smooth side? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by casing it first, as well.

The instructions from Stitchawl are for casing the leather. Softer leather will deflect very easily and round your cutting edge over, this is why I recommend using paper over a stone to get your feet wet. The diamond compounds are a bit too pricy to just wipe on a sheet of paper and toss, so on to the leather. This is a presonal preference, but I would only use the suede side of the leather with a very coarse grit if even then, or it'll be sure to round your edge. If you harden the leather and use the smooth side you will lessen the possibility of overdoing it. In general when stropping on leather, no matter how hard, use very light pressure.

Gotcha! I think I'll give it a shot, as it certainly can't hurt, and even if I can't get a mirror finish, anything'll look better than the mess of scratches that I have now. I've heard things elsewhere that have implied that I should go a certain direction every other grit (vertical strokes for one grit, then horizontal for the next, then diagonal....etc.) Any idea if this is true/why?

I imagine that's to make sure you completely overgrind the coarser finish every time, might also speed things up a bit?

 

[Jtsessions]

The instructions from Stitchawl are for casing the leather. Softer leather will deflect very easily and round your cutting edge over, this is why I recommend using paper over a stone to get your feet wet. The diamond compounds are a bit too pricy to just wipe on a sheet of paper and toss, so on to the leather. This is a presonal preference, but I would only use the suede side of the leather with a very coarse grit if even then, or it'll be sure to round your edge. If you harden the leather and use the smooth side you will lessen the possibility of overdoing it. In general when stropping on leather, no matter how hard, use very light pressure.



I imagine that's to make sure you completely overgrind the coarser finish every time, might also speed things up a bit?

Got it! That answers everything for now - I think I may get back to you once I begin stropping. Thanks for all the clear and detailed answers - it's so much easier to work with your advice, as I know exactly what to look for.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Got it! That answers everything for now - I think I may get back to you once I begin stropping. Thanks for all the clear and detailed answers - it's so much easier to work with your advice, as I know exactly what to look for.

You are very welcome, easy to give advice when the questions are limited and clear. Stropping is whole other mass of variables - go slow.

 

[Jtsessions]

Alright, in an effort to get stropping down and practice a bit without compound, I took a leather belt and stropped the blade about ~10 times per side at the same angle that it was sharpened, edge trailing, across the leather. I did not notice a burr surfacing that wasn't obvious before, and the blade did not appear to be any better at push cutting or any more polished. Are the results of stropping in this manner (and without compound) normally so subtle?

I've also heard two conflicting things about stropping at the wrong angle - On the one hand, some say that it can round your edge and mess up the bevel you've worked from the stones. Others, however, have said that if you strop at the wrong angle, the leather will conform to the surface of the bevel anyways. Any ideas?

On that note, I've also heard conflicting things about edge trailing sharpening using stones. I initially heard that it would work against building a burr and that it could do something with the metal that effected your ability to sharpen the blade. Later, though, I began seeing/hearing of people sharpening blades with circular motions that inevitably involve edge trailing motions. Is this bad for the blade/will it effect the sharpening process?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Alright, in an effort to get stropping down and practice a bit without compound, I took a leather belt and stropped the blade about ~10 times per side at the same angle that it was sharpened, edge trailing, across the leather. I did not notice a burr surfacing that wasn't obvious before, and the blade did not appear to be any better at push cutting or any more polished. Are the results of stropping in this manner (and without compound) normally so subtle?

I've also heard two conflicting things about stropping at the wrong angle - On the one hand, some say that it can round your edge and mess up the bevel you've worked from the stones. Others, however, have said that if you strop at the wrong angle, the leather will conform to the surface of the bevel anyways. Any ideas?

On that note, I've also heard conflicting things about edge trailing sharpening using stones. I initially heard that it would work against building a burr and that it could do something with the metal that effected your ability to sharpen the blade. Later, though, I began seeing/hearing of people sharpening blades with circular motions that inevitably involve edge trailing motions. Is this bad for the blade/will it effect the sharpening process?

Stropping on plain leather isn't going to do much at intermediate levels of polish, for the most part. If the leather is really firm, it will improve the edge somewhat, and reveal burrs that were otherwise not obvious. It shouldn't round the edge to any detectable degree either. If you are using compound on the leather, you can and will round the cutting edge if too much pressure is used or if you come at it too high. If the blade is a full convex or Scandi grind this will be lessened to some extent as the leather can expand back to its original volume over a larger area. On a knife with a V bevel it will round the cutting edge quickly if not approached very carefully and with light pressure. The harder the backing, the less likely to round the edge, will also effect the level of polish for a given abrasive - softer backing = finer finish. hanging strops can accomodate more variances in angle, but this is likely because they seem better able to correct the edge angle, not because they conform better. The text below is from an older thread but applies to the discussion.

In terms of material removal, edge leading on a hard stone is going to be the highest amount per pass. The abrasive is hitting a finite spot - the joining point of two planes, so it digs right in, ploughs a trough and exits at the shoulder or along the curve if its a convex or Scandi with a gentle curve (as most are). Max material removal, max definition of the grind trough (ideal for coarse edge work), much of the burr is trapped under the bevel and ground to powder as it goes. The bit of steel that was deformed and pushed up opposite the cutting edge - the abrasive isn't 100% efficient and will almost always leave some material behind - will stay put until it gets removed by flipping the edge and grinding it off.

Edge trailing on hard stones -
removes a bit less steel per pass as the abrasive is hitting along a curve or slope of the shoulder and exitting at the joining of the bevel. When used as part of a back and forth scrub it speeds up material removal considerably without any appreciable increase in burr formation - maybe a small amount. For a finishing method it works poorly, as the amount of pressure that will flip the burr is generally in the neighborhood of what is needed to grind it off, due to the abrasive having a relatively poor angle of attack. An extremely light touch can make it happen but will be problematic. A possible exception is the use of very fine polishing stones on an already cleaned (de-burred) edge. The smaller abrasive and smoother surface will result in very little material removal, and some burnishing, so far less likelihood of burr formation. On a regular stone, almost impossible to create a clean edge this way - edge leading will work far more reliably.

Edge trailing on "hard" stones does not really apply to waterstones or jointer stones. The way the grit is suspended in the stone makes it very easy for the abrasive to tear out if too much pressure is applied, so burr formation is reduced initially by a lapping action, reduced tendency of "proud" abrasive particles to create deeper gouges, and continual presence of fresh abrasive. When used as a backhone, there is some particle mobility and a slightly softer base for the abrasive. It can just grind cleanly without creating a burr when used edge trailing, and is usually capable of removing smaller burrs as well. This property seems to be related to those two factors - hardness of the stone, and relative ability of the abrasive to come loose during grinding, so on a very hard waterstone with strongly bonded abrasive, this might not apply. The same stone finished edge leading will have a slightly more uniform cutting edge when viewed in profile, but might be a tad less refined. For EDU, backhoning leaves a very fine microtooth that makes finish stropping in most cases unnecessary or undesirable. Have seen many discussion of folks using waterstones who do no post stone stropping except on plain leather or paper, and I am one of them. Backhoning on waterstones IMHO is the most demanding of freehand techniques, unforgiving of pressure and angle variations - it will reveal the slightest defect in one's form, but makes an edge with a very nice blend of characteristics. I made the WB specifically to mimic this type of edge but with a greater margin of error regarding pressure, angle control, and stone type/grit value.

 

[HeavyHanded]

This is the rest of it

Edge trailing on wet/dry over hard surface.
This will remove a bit less steel again, due to the edge trailing not biting as hard, and the bit of conformability of the paper - this applies even if the wet/dry is placed over glass. The paper will always have a bit of give. If one switches to lapping film using a thinner synthetic backing the cushion will be less, but still present. This results in a more uniform scratch pattern over a hard stone at the same grit. It also reduces burr formation over a trailing motion on a hard stone at comparable grit value.
As to using but not raising a burr, this is not really possible IMHO, or you won't have sharpened the edge. You can use it to a very very small burr, but it will still be there. The trailing motion is not conducive to burr removal at the same angle, for the same reasons the trailing stroke with a hard stone is inefficient. Can be done but is extremely critical of pressure. I always advocate a few light edge leading passes to finish, and as demo'd in my video, a few drags through wood as you go helps quite a bit. In my experience, drags through wood by themselves will only remove the tiniest of burrs, but interspersed with more work on an abrasive, they can be surprisingly effective. I consider it to be an expedient measure though, as bits of steel and abrasive will get worked into the groove(s), and start scoring the bevel parallel to the cutting edge. Does not effect function, but if the scores are right on top of the apex it can become difficult to distinguish the burr from a fine scratch. A few leading passes suffer no such complication.

Edge trailing loaded strop
Now we get into the wilderness. There are some commonalities across media, so start there. Similar in some respects to sandpaper in that the abrasive can sink in and produce a more uniform surface. Also has more mobility than sandpaper, so between these two factors, much less likely to create burring. This is where the binder starts to become more important. Binder that swamps the abrasive, becomes impacted with swarf, allows too much mobility etc will reduce the effectiveness of a given abrasive, especially on specific substrates.*
The amount of conformability also effects the ability of the strop to remove burrs, with the advantage going to softer strops due to the changed angle of attack (more up, less across - relatively speaking).

The amount of metal removed is higher for larger grit and harder surfaces, but still very modest. Backhoning on waterstones comes close in terms of material removed.

* side note: anyone that bought/is considering buying a Washboard should not think of the WB compound as just like brand X and only included for convenience. I spent a lot of time making a blend that worked well with paper and at higher spot pressure, even after obtaining good pricing from a quality abrasive manufacturer I went with my house blend. Try other stuff, but make sure to try the WB compound too.

 

[Jtsessions]

This is the rest of it

Ahhh, I see! If I'm hearing you correctly, backhoning does have its place, but it serves a different purpose and may not always be appropriate. Edge leading will be a more direct way to remove material, but edge trailing is better for refining the edge while minimizing burr creation. Does that mean it'd be better to do edge leading up until I get to the higher grit (3k+) stones, then edge trail on those to refine the edge?

I'm getting a king ice bear today in the mail - it's a 4k grit waterstone. Is this, followed by the DMT-3, enough to comfortably take my edges to the next level? Should I be able to get a mirror finished edge without an intermediate stone between the 4k/compound?

Thanks again!

 

[HeavyHanded]

Ahhh, I see! If I'm hearing you correctly, backhoning does have its place, but it serves a different purpose and may not always be appropriate. Edge leading will be a more direct way to remove material, but edge trailing is better for refining the edge while minimizing burr creation. Does that mean it'd be better to do edge leading up until I get to the higher grit (3k+) stones, then edge trail on those to refine the edge?

I'm getting a king ice bear today in the mail - it's a 4k grit waterstone. Is this, followed by the DMT-3, enough to comfortably take my edges to the next level? Should I be able to get a mirror finished edge without an intermediate stone between the 4k/compound?

Thanks again!

IMHO, edge trailing as a finishing method is only appropriate on waterstones, jointer stones, and strops of some sort. If we're talking about fine Arkansas stones, ceramics, vitreous stones (combination stones), diamond plates, my opinion is that you are better off finishing with a leading edge, even at the higher end of things. Trailing edge on unyielding stones will almost invariably produce burrs that will be all but impossible to remove without a leading stroke.


The King 4k is a good stone to do some edge trailing as a finish method. If you're coming off of a rougher stone, an 800 or 1k for example, you might have to do some leading strokes to completely eliminate the burr as you overgrind the deeper scratch pattern. Once the edge has achieved the finer finish, a few backhoning passes will leave you with a very nice edge - IMHO better than finishing with a leading edge on this stone.

Be advised, backhoning on a waterstone is fairly demanding technically - it is easy to round the edge due to the minimal feedback, or raise a burr on a clean edge due to the trailing action of the stroke if your pressure is too heavy. It is a bit easier to use it with a scrubbing stroke and finish with a few careful trailing passes as described above. For touch-ups on the same stone with an edge that was already finished off at that level, you can go straight to a handful of backhone passes. Should that fail to restore the edge, you'll want to drop back down to a rougher stone or at least settle down to some scrubbing on the 4k to remove a bit more steel in a reasonable amount of time. Then finish with a trailing stroke. The 4k becomes the strop in some respects.

I highly recommend using dry newspaper or writing paper wrapped around a stone as a final, final step when using waterstones in this manner (if it gets a little damp, not a problem, but seems to work best if more on the dry side). The edge should be capable of tree-topping some leg hairs at this stage. Likely not hair whittling, but a nice microtoothy edge that performs well across a range of tasks. It will have a nice shine but still with a bit of haze. To refine it further, King also makes a 6k. I have also used the mud that forms on the surface of a waterstone as a matched stropping compound. Simply drag a sheet of paper across the stone a few times, wrap it around the same stone, and lightly strop with that. Backhoning on the 6k seems to produce a nicer edge by comparison, but the stone mud does come in handy.

Murray Carter has a bunch of videos showing very good physical technique and sharpening strategy with the King stones - I highly recommend watching all that you can find and study the details of his mechanics.

The DMT 3u will likely improve such an edge very little if at all. Always be ready to experiment, but get a solid grip on the steps leading up to any point where you want to tweak the variables - be very happy with the edges right off the 4k before doing anything more than stropping on paper. In my opinion, save the 3u for finishing an edge off of diamond plates or some other hard stone, or for working tougher steels - the kind of steels you won't want to be sharpening on a King stone anyway. The King stones are very nice for carbon steels and simple stainless. On tougher stainless they will load up and perform fairly slowly, especially the polishing stones (4k and up).

Martin

 

[Jtsessions]

Got it! Thanks for the extremely informative post

The DMT-3 and strop came in, and the strop has 4 sides that I can use - two on the leather and two on the suede. The two sides for each are the hard face and the softer opposite side, kind of like a leather belt. Which sides should I apply which compounds to for maximum use?

 

[Cynic2701]

I was able to get a pack of all three of the DMT 6/3/1 diamond pastes for around $23--that doesn't seem very expensive to me for the amount of paste that you get. A few years ago I got a tube of just the 1 micron paste and I'm only halfway through it, and I still liberally will use a dollop every so often on paper.

 

[Jtsessions]

I was able to get a pack of all three of the DMT 6/3/1 diamond pastes for around $23--that doesn't seem very expensive to me for the amount of paste that you get. A few years ago I got a tube of just the 1 micron paste and I'm only halfway through it, and I still liberally will use a dollop every so often on paper.

Yeah, I got the same thing for the same cost. Holy crap, it lasted you -that long-? Wow!

My knife is cutting hair clean off the rough stone, but it's a coarse sort of sharpness. From there, it's still cutting hair off of the medium grit stone, but on the fine and the waterstone, it seems to LOSE sharpness. While the bevel looks clean and even, I think that it's probably being rounded off some because of the sheer number of stones I go through and my inconsistencies. That said, I'm noticing some small "dimples" in my bevels from time to time, where it looks like a tiny fluctuation in angle in one small spot in the center of the blade. I've been using long, single strokes lately as I experiment with techniques, and thus it doesn't make sense that I'd vary the angle and hit such a small spot (like, really, it's the length of 2-3 knife TIPS. It's TINY!). Any idea what could be causing this?

 

[Cynic2701]

It is hard to say without watching you sharpen what you might be doing. It is some sort of inconsistency in either angle, or in the amount of "sharpening" you are doing on a particular area of the blade. For example, perhaps you are over-sharpening one area of the blade and under-sharpening another area very close to one another which may be causing this--small changes in pressure through your stroke could be doing this. Again, I couldn't tell you for sure unless I was looking over your shoulder.

Probably all you need to do is just practice sharpening more. It seems like you have an interest in it, and therefore the motivation to continue doing it as well. I love to sharpen and frequently run out of things to sharpen when I really get going.

I do use the 6/3/1/ DMT diamond pastes to help blend together the small inconsistencies that hand sharpening can sometimes cause. Here's a recent pic of a Caly 3.5:

The Caly 3.5 is a very good EDC. I prefer the ZDP-189 version over the VG-10 version, as it can take and hold a more acute edge.

Between the Caly 3 and the 3.5 I think that the 3.5 wins hands down. I do still keep my CF/ZDP Caly 3 because it has a smaller, more people friendly blade, and because my Dad bought it for me.

Here's a few pics of my 3.5 that I've taken down to 20 degrees inclusive:

 

[HeavyHanded]

Yeah, I got the same thing for the same cost. Holy crap, it lasted you -that long-? Wow!

My knife is cutting hair clean off the rough stone, but it's a coarse sort of sharpness. From there, it's still cutting hair off of the medium grit stone, but on the fine and the waterstone, it seems to LOSE sharpness. While the bevel looks clean and even, I think that it's probably being rounded off some because of the sheer number of stones I go through and my inconsistencies. That said, I'm noticing some small "dimples" in my bevels from time to time, where it looks like a tiny fluctuation in angle in one small spot in the center of the blade. I've been using long, single strokes lately as I experiment with techniques, and thus it doesn't make sense that I'd vary the angle and hit such a small spot (like, really, it's the length of 2-3 knife TIPS. It's TINY!). Any idea what could be causing this?

I highly advise you to use shorter strokes.The contact area at any given point is very small, its easy to loose the angle or path as you go when using longer strokes, and also more difficult to raise a small, even burr and to remove same.

Loosing sharpness as you go up in polish is almost certainly from elevating the spine and rounding the apex off. Also, feedback and margin of error will diminish as you go up in polish. You can have more wobble at a coarser grit and the bevel will still appear flat - the margin of error is determined by the size range of the grit. As you go down in abrasive size, this margin shrinks and there will be less feedback as you begin on a finer stone. If you elevate the spine to get this back, your edge will become more obtuse as you go. Use a Sharpie to tell where you're hitting (mark the edge and check often), and try to work from the shoulder to the apex each time. It helps to lower the spine for a short pass every so often so you can reorient yourself based on that change in feedback, rather than from elevating the spine to get the apex to "bite".

Not everyone agrees on this, but I'm a big believer in doing a bunch of work with your coarse stones before moving up in polish. When you can lay down and deburr a nice flat, rough edge, the next step will be easier, and the step after that. I try to have no more than three steps - there might be an additional one at the beginning to change an inclusive angle if there's a lot of steel being removed, but after that its coarse, medium, and fine. Maybe an additional step at the high end too, but those fall to either side of the the basic process.

 

[Jtsessions]

It is hard to say without watching you sharpen what you might be doing. It is some sort of inconsistency in either angle, or in the amount of "sharpening" you are doing on a particular area of the blade. For example, perhaps you are over-sharpening one area of the blade and under-sharpening another area very close to one another which may be causing this--small changes in pressure through your stroke could be doing this. Again, I couldn't tell you for sure unless I was looking over your shoulder.

Probably all you need to do is just practice sharpening more. It seems like you have an interest in it, and therefore the motivation to continue doing it as well. I love to sharpen and frequently run out of things to sharpen when I really get going.

I do use the 6/3/1/ DMT diamond pastes to help blend together the small inconsistencies that hand sharpening can sometimes cause. Here's a recent pic of a Caly 3.5:

Gotcha! I'll try and watch my pressure in addition to angle - I wasn't aware of the significant difference in result that that could yield. Beautiful knife!

I highly advise you to use shorter strokes.The contact area at any given point is very small, its easy to loose the angle or path as you go when using longer strokes, and also more difficult to raise a small, even burr and to remove same.

Loosing sharpness as you go up in polish is almost certainly from elevating the spine and rounding the apex off. Also, feedback and margin of error will diminish as you go up in polish. You can have more wobble at a coarser grit and the bevel will still appear flat - the margin of error is determined by the size range of the grit. As you go down in abrasive size, this margin shrinks and there will be less feedback as you begin on a finer stone. If you elevate the spine to get this back, your edge will become more obtuse as you go. Use a Sharpie to tell where you're hitting (mark the edge and check often), and try to work from the shoulder to the apex each time. It helps to lower the spine for a short pass every so often so you can reorient yourself based on that change in feedback, rather than from elevating the spine to get the apex to "bite".

Not everyone agrees on this, but I'm a big believer in doing a bunch of work with your coarse stones before moving up in polish. When you can lay down and deburr a nice flat, rough edge, the next step will be easier, and the step after that. I try to have no more than three steps - there might be an additional one at the beginning to change an inclusive angle if there's a lot of steel being removed, but after that its coarse, medium, and fine. Maybe an additional step at the high end too, but those fall to either side of the the basic process.

Gotcha; I remember you mentioning this some. I'll try watching the apex rounding. As far as shorter motions, I played with that some a little bit ago but something about longer strokes felt more effective. I'll try the same sequence with shorter motions and see if I can get a definitive result that'll demonstrate the differences between both for me.

You state that you try to have no more than three steps; I have a smith's tri-hone (200~?/600/1000) and a king ice bear (4000). It seems like I can't re-flatten imperfections in the bevel even with the 600 grit stone, so I'm usually forced to drop down to the lowest grit. What sequence of stones would you use in this case? I'd like to see what the new 4k is capable of, but so far I've been unable to maintain the consistency that demonstrating that would require.

Any idea on the stropping stuff from earlier? Basically, I've got a leather and suede strop, and each has a "back" side, too, of different texture. I have DMT-3 with 1/3/6 micron; Which surfaces would be best for which compounds?

Thank you both so much for the detailed and informative answers!

 

[HeavyHanded]

Gotcha! I'll try and watch my pressure in addition to angle - I wasn't aware of the significant difference in result that that could yield. Beautiful knife!



Gotcha; I remember you mentioning this some. I'll try watching the apex rounding. As far as shorter motions, I played with that some a little bit ago but something about longer strokes felt more effective. I'll try the same sequence with shorter motions and see if I can get a definitive result that'll demonstrate the differences between both for me.

You state that you try to have no more than three steps; I have a smith's tri-hone (200~?/600/1000) and a king ice bear (4000). It seems like I can't re-flatten imperfections in the bevel even with the 600 grit stone, so I'm usually forced to drop down to the lowest grit. What sequence of stones would you use in this case? I'd like to see what the new 4k is capable of, but so far I've been unable to maintain the consistency that demonstrating that would require.

Any idea on the stropping stuff from earlier? Basically, I've got a leather and suede strop, and each has a "back" side, too, of different texture. I have DMT-3 with 1/3/6 micron; Which surfaces would be best for which compounds?

Thank you both so much for the detailed and informative answers!

Is your Tri-hone a diamond and Arkansas or one of the aluminum oxide (coarse) and soft and hard Arkansas?
Because of the way the grit scales differ, a N American 600 grit is going to be close to a 1000 grit Japanese waterstone. You can go from a 1k JWS to a 4k no problem. Sight unseen, I'd use the 200 to set the bevel and everything after that would be 600 and on to the 4k, finish with backhoning on the 4k and strop with newspaper wrapped around same (or another similar stone - whatever's dry). If I were to move on to a loaded strop, I'd want a 6k waterstone in the mix first. You can actually go from the 1k to the 6k and it will work out fine. Checking the grit chart in the sticky at the top of the page, a 4k is already about 3 micron.

As I mentioned, using the polishing grade waterstones is not simple, takes a bit of general experience and even then there will be a learning curve. Feedback is minimal, it was on these types of stones that I really make use of that "feeling" pass on the shoulder to recalibrate from time to time. Make sure to soak it well and keep some water on it - don't let it load up. Done well, you'll be wearing a grin when you realize how nice the edge is and how well it can perform on a variety of chores.

As for the leather strop, I still say you shouldn't use the sueded side for anything unless you intend to satin polish the face of a wide bladed knife, like a Chef's knife. It can be done, but is too problematic to use it for edge work, especially to learn on. Smooth side only, very light touch, and make sure the leather is hard.

 

[Jtsessions]

Is your Tri-hone a diamond and Arkansas or one of the aluminum oxide (coarse) and soft and hard Arkansas?
Because of the way the grit scales differ, a N American 600 grit is going to be close to a 1000 grit Japanese waterstone. You can go from a 1k JWS to a 4k no problem. Sight unseen, I'd use the 200 to set the bevel and everything after that would be 600 and on to the 4k, finish with backhoning on the 4k and strop with newspaper wrapped around same (or another similar stone - whatever's dry). If I were to move on to a loaded strop, I'd want a 6k waterstone in the mix first. You can actually go from the 1k to the 6k and it will work out fine. Checking the grit chart in the sticky at the top of the page, a 4k is already about 3 micron.

As I mentioned, using the polishing grade waterstones is not simple, takes a bit of general experience and even then there will be a learning curve. Feedback is minimal, it was on these types of stones that I really make use of that "feeling" pass on the shoulder to recalibrate from time to time. Make sure to soak it well and keep some water on it - don't let it load up. Done well, you'll be wearing a grin when you realize how nice the edge is and how well it can perform on a variety of chores.

As for the leather strop, I still say you shouldn't use the sueded side for anything unless you intend to satin polish the face of a wide bladed knife, like a Chef's knife. It can be done, but is too problematic to use it for edge work, especially to learn on. Smooth side only, very light touch, and make sure the leather is hard.

It's the aluminum oxide/arkansas stones combo. Does this mean you'd do 200/600/4k?

I'm not sure I follow what you mean about the shoulder recalibration bit - could you possibly go into depth on that a bit more?

Lastly, if I'm using the soft side of the leather strop, does this mean I should pick up a second strop in order to use more than one compound at once, once I begin working with compound?

Thanks so much!