Being "discreet" and "sheeple friendly" is part of the problem

Originally posted by Paul Work
Mike, I agree with you in theory, but I gotta stand with 92degrees on this one. If we fly in the face of society, society will eventually kick our a$$es.
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Carrying a legal knife might be flying in the face of society, but hiding our knives and using them in secret is only hurting us...

I work in a factory. We are not "allowed" to use "personal"knives for "safety" reasons. This rule is generally overlooked, but if you get cut your gonna hang for it. Company insurance will not cover it. The company has a rule against carrying concealed weopons on company property. Nobody can give me a straight answer as to what a "concealed weopon" is. I choose to remain discreet.
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The workplace is an entirely different story, as compared to being in public or just about anywhere else.

If your workplace has a policy against knives, you should do yourself a favor and try to get it changed, and enlist as many of your coworkers as you can..other than that, the only alternative is to either not carry or find another place to work.

Somebody can give you a straight answer about concealed weapons..have you asked the CEO? Surely it's not some arbitrary policy that is randomly enforced. Why not take the mystery out of it, and then decide what you should do?

I'm not saying anyone should carry illegal knives, or carry where there are policies or laws against knives. I am saying that if you are legally carrying a knife, you are doing yourself a disservice by being discreet or any other such nonsense.

The cliche "familiarity breeds contempt" is most certainly true, and the more people are exposed to knives the less unusual they will think it is.

People are remarkably adaptable if given half a chance. Unfortunately, the adaptability swings both ways, and we can either adapt carrying our knives and using them or we can get adapt to making do without them.
People can either get used to seeing knives or they can get used to not seeing them. Again unfortunately, the general public has gotten used to not seeing knives, and are therefore uneasy when they are occasionally exposed to them.
 
I'm with you, Mike
Agree strongly with everything you said, its time we stopped cringing in the corner with little knives that we carry just to please the sheeple, we should carry what we want and what suits our needs, not what suits the wants and needs of the sheeple, its none of their business what i keep in my pocket, and if they have a problem with it, thats just what it is; their problem. I personally carry and use whatever the hell i like. If i see a smaller knife that i like and feel will suit my needs better, then, and only then will i buy one. We need to stand up for ourselves, we cant allow our rights to be taken from us. Thanks for pointing that out to us Mike. :)
 
Mike-

While I agree with you to an extent, my career, salary and comission mean far more to me than carrying a knife.

Just for a sense of context, I'm curious as to what field you work in. As a sales manager at the world's largest manufacturer of concsumer electronics, I don't NEED a knife for my daily activities, yet I carry two small fixed blades everywhere and an SAK in my briefcase.
 
Originally posted by 92degrees
mikemck,
You are clearly passionate about this issue and I have nothing but respect for you and your opinion. You seem to feel that if I don't stand up for my right to carry what's legal, and do it conspicuously, then you may lose some of your rights. My concern is that if people make a big effort to conspicuously use and carry knives, and public perception and sentiment doesn't change, then we will all lose some of our rights.
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And I having nothing but respect for your view also.

You do not see that we have already lost some of our rights, and we continue to lose them, even though we are for the most part tying to conform and be discreet?

I'm simply advocating carrying what you want as long as it is legal, and using it when you need a knife, regardless of who you are around.

I think YOU are missing my point with the story of breaks. We DID NOT try to stay out of folks way and enjoy our breaks. We basically screamed "we're entitled to breaks and we're going to take them!" Well, we got ours, as you say, twice.
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You are right, I did miss your point. I read "inconspicuous" when what you wrote was "conspicuous".

Again though, the workplace is quite different than being out & about in public. Your employer does have the right to make policies, within reason, and most certainly can make policies regarding knives.

How did we get where we are with knives banned in schools? SDouglas hit the nail on head "Unfortunately fear is irrational."
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We got to the knives banned anywhere because we let it happen. I did not hear any great outcry when knives were banned in schools...did you? Did anyone oppose? Does anyone oppose it now?
Fear is irrational, but apathy is what really takes a toll.

I get to fish in what amounts to a national wildlife refuge. Why? Because it's not specifically illegal to fish there. So, I tread lightly, and I don't make it into a big deal. Perhaps I should make my fishing there a real scene -- make sure everyone sees me? Why? To assert and protect my rights, or to have them taken away? Where is the greatest risk? I'm confident I know.
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You don't have the right to fish wherever you want to..that's the difference.
You don't have the right to fish on my property anymore than I have the right to "borrow" your car.
If they tolerate your fishing in the preserve, of course you would do so quitely and respectfully.
Carrying a legal knife is much different, at least for now.

Ever hear the expression "Past performance is no guarantee of future results?" I think about that a lot with regard to knives. Just because it's legal for me to do it doesn't mean I should -- and risk that things are changed to prevent me from doing it tomorrow. THAT was the point of my "break story."
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Things already are changing to prevent you from doing it tomorrow, and trying to conform is not going to stop it. You can clearly see this by looking at where we are today as compared to 20 or even 10 years ago.

There is NO reason why you should refrain from carrying and using a perfectly legal knife.


I disagree with part of your assessment about where we are these days. Sure, in Jr. High I used to carry a knife on my belt -- lots of kids did. These days I carry a bigger knife clipped in my pocket or IWB. Have I "lost ground?" I don't really think so. Pulling that particular knife out in front of a secretary isn't going to get me anywhere better, but using a small slipjoint instead may protect where I am.
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All you need is a small slipjoint...why not just ban the other knives so you can try to keep the right to carry the slipjoint?
Afterall, if you ban everything else, won't that be enough?
 
M@thew

I don't think any of the folks who've responded are cringing in the corner. I agree it's none of "their business" what's in your pocket. I'm just advocating that we not make it their business by trying to push the issue sometimes.


"Their problems" tend to become "our problems."
 
Well… My take on this, which isn’t surprising, is a bit different than anybody else’s. I’m a guy who lives and works amongst vast hordes of sheeple. I also have a job that requires a bit of knife use.

I don’t go around carrying some big bowie knife. That would be foolish. People would instantly rise up and try to take away my knife carrying privileges. So I’ve taken a different approach, which rides midway between the extremes of this argument. I carry a slightly larger folder than I actually need, and use it around everyone I can. I try to push the envelope and get people used to seeing knives used as tools. I’ve even successfully carried a tiny fixed blade on a belt sheath lately.

A working knife is foreign to modern day people. People are naturally scared of something foreign to them. The key is desensitizing the public in an appropriate manner. Take out your knife and use it. Show people that a knife is a tool, not just what they see portrayed in the movies. As people once again notice that a knife can be useful, they will grow to appreciate it, rather than be frightened by it.

You win over people, not conquer them. People have learned through the media that a knife is just a weapon. It’s our job to re-teach them that a knife is a tool. Things won’t change overnight. We must regain our privileges at the same speed we have lost them, which is little bit by little bit.

To tell you the truth, the manufacturers haven’t helped matters. Many tactical knives are designed to look like weapons instead of tools. Stupid, stupid, stupid. With all of that black G-10 and black-coated blades, it’s no wonder that people are frightened. There was a day when knives were designed with an organic content, using wood and bone. Now we have this “spec-ops” looking crap. If you want to be Rambo, go out and use your black knife in the woods. If you want to be around the public, you carry a gentlemen’s’ knife. The gentlemen’s knife doesn’t have to be smaller, just a little more aesthetically pleasing to the average eye.
 
92degrees
it seems i should have chosen my wording more carefully. i apologise if i offended anyone. i dont think i'm trying to push an issue, just agreeing with a point i believe Mike was making about us making a more active stand against being pushed into carrying smaller knives or none at all.
 
m@thew, I'm not offended at all, but thanks. I'm just in the mood for a good debate and that's what I think this is. I really value everyone's thoughts in this thread and I think everyone's been respectful and reasonable. This is great!

Buzzbait, that was well said.

mikemck, well, I admit that you've pushed my buttons by saying "You don't seem to understand people in general." I'm always learning, but I make my living trying to understand people, their behavior, and how to change it. That's been my education, my avocation, and a passion my whole life. I was in advertising for many years, then I taught, now I back in the business. Advertising is about nothing more than changing peoples minds. I assure you, you can't tell other people that what you say or do shouldn't make them uncomfortable, it does not work that way. You also can not ignore their discomfort and hope it goes away or that their discomfort lessens with repeated exposure.

I do not refrain from carrying and using legal knives. I carry what I like and do my best to not get caught! I refrain from making an effort to ignore the feelings of "sheeple" by doing it in their faces. I never said that I all I need is a slipjoint. I said that I would rather make do with one in front of a client or my secretary rather than cause someone discomfort.

I understand that your point is that if I did it often enough then it would be commonplace and not an issue. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't get away with anything larger more than that first time. As soon as the office door closes or I'm around more understanding (educated) coworkers, I'm making short-work of fruit and cardboard with some serious blades.

You and I are probably not as far apart as it seems we are as I reread some of my stuff. I tend to carry medium sized folders (3-3.5") and use them often and in plain view of folks I know. I agree with Buzzbait, and my larger folders are usually not very tactical looking.
 
If carrying a knife puts your job in jeopardy, then I guess you most certainly should not carry one, discreetly or otherwise.

However, carrying a knife in public is a different story.

Just for a sense of context, I'm curious as to what field you work in. As a sales manager at the world's largest manufacturer of concsumer electronics, I don't NEED a knife for my daily activities, yet I carry two small fixed blades everywhere and an SAK in my briefcase.
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I work in a hospital, that has no policy on carrying knives. As such, I carry the very same knife at work that I carry everywhere else, which happens to be a TOPS CQT 747..much bigger than I "need", but that's not the point.
 
Posted by Buzzbait
You win over people, not conquer them.
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What a great debate. Both 92degrees and Mike have very valid arguments. But I think the debate lies in the suggested practice, not the theory. In practice, Buzzbait's words above are the most practical and effective form of compromise. In my opinion, of course ;)

I'll shut up here since everything else I'd like to say has been said and with far bigger words.

Zero
 
As I said, I just wanted some context for the discussion, not trying to make a point.

I, as I said, carry all day long, more our of personal preference than "need." If nothing else, this thread will incent me to seek out and determine whether my company has a policy on carrying.

It's certainly a case of choosing your battles; definitely a cause worth fighting for ans standing up for, but, if I lose my job over it (stranger things have happened), it may seem like tilting at windmills in hindsight.
 
92degrees; yep, this is a good debate :)

Buzzbait; i think you make some very good points, but i think an issue you have not addressed is that of personal taste. I carry a BM 710 because i like the size, it feels good in my hand and i feel i can rely on the lock. It may be hard to believe but i also personally find knives of this type to be more attractive due to their plain nature (black g10, satin blade), i'm not a fan of wood or stag on my folders. Also i believe that tactical knives are more appealing to many consumers because of the added strength and utility their tactical nature affords. I dont want to be rambo, but i also dont want to buy a fancy looking folder that doesnt appeal to me either in terms of looks or practicality.
 
m@thew - I truly understand that you have an aesthetic preference for the "tactical look", but we don't always "get our cake and eat it too". The world judges us, and our knives by social norms. If we carry tomahawks or run around in rubber underwear, people will have a negative attitude towards us. This is just because the norm is not to carry a tomahawk or dress in just rubber underwear. If we wish to change these norms, we have to demonstrate our preferences in a constructive manner, without attacking the societal norm. We win people over to our ideas, not bash them over the head with them.

The “tactical look” could one day be socially accepted, but that is another battle. We first have to get people to accept knives as an everyday tool. Then we can work on the aesthetics. For now… It’s better to go with wood and bone. Once people have grown to accept that, we push the envelope again. Change comes slowly.

The idea of the gentlemen’s knife has been around for ages, and was an accepted norm for carrying a knife in public. We’ll have to strive just to get back that point before we can assume that the tactical look will be socially acceptable.

Anxiously waiting for my black/black BM 710 to arrive in the mail. :D
 
Excellent discussion!!

One thing I see here is that we all should be trying in whatever way we can (either "safely" or "pushing the envelope") to acclimatize others to our interest in knives (and by extension--self-reliance, preparedness, and even a celebration of "the good old days") as well as the importance of being able to use these tools without being discriminated against.

I like all types of knives, but usually carry the no-frills FRN types of medium to large lockblades. I've had my Sifu on the bagel table at the health club I used to attend, although I would probably not pull it out in a "strange" environment.

Right now I'm working on a "mini knife show" for a class I'm attending at OSU, complete with pre- and post- "show" surveys for the mostly education-oriented students. I hope it pans out. If it does, and Spark likes my idea of using BF as part of the "multimedia presentation," I'll be posting about it here in General by next Monday or Tuesday.

Envelope pushing,

Karl
 
Yep i can see where you're coming from Buzzbait, if we all carry gentlemen's knives until people get used to it, we will reach a stage where those and tactical knives also become more socially acceptable, a true point, but i believe it lacks ecological validity in that there arent many of us who are prepared to go down that road, we'd rather put up with the odd dirty look from ignorant members of the general public than wien(sp) them gently into getting used to it,.(a shame really, if we were all willing to do what you suggest knife knuts would probably be reaping the benefits for generations to come)
of course, this might be practical in the workplace where many favor gentlemen's folders anyway. I agree that we need to educate the general public in terms of the utility value of knives, though this may be difficult.
Also good luck with the black/black 710, i read your post about your Sebenza and i'd be interested to hear how the two knives compare ;) any chance you could post some sort of review/comparison?
 
I carry what I want when and where I want.But like buzzbait,I try to win people over.You have to let people know your one of the good guys and we use big knives also.

I medic at my kids football games,last year a coach asked me to cut a strap off a kids helmet,I had an emt shears on me but used my LCC instead.Why,because he knows I'm a good guy and I wanted to show him we use knives too.I have used an AFCK to carve pumpkins in my kids classroom!!When I go in the school each year to teach the kids fire safety,and tell them about my job I always show them a knife or two.

Carry your knives use your knives show people that there everyday tools,DON'T HIDE YOUR KNIVES,or carry something else because of what others may think.SHOW THEM DIFFERANT.
 
You can bet I'll be writing up a review once I've gotten it in and had time to PLAY with it. :)
 
Carrying openly in public will depend on where you are and the circumstances involved. I live in a fairly small town. It is not uncommon to see a Buck 110 on someones belt. During hunting season it is common to see fixed blades worn openly. This is socially acceptable here. Wearing knives such a these at the local mall will raise some eyebrows.

How you are dressed will also dictate how you are viewed in relation to the knife you are carrying. Sad, but true.

Your actions when using your knife in public will reflect on how you are viewed. Do you snap, flick, or otherwise rapidly deploy your blade to snip a thread? Do you handle it in a safe, conciensious manner?

And finally, the appearence of the knife itself. A gents knife will draw less attention than a black tactical. I know we may not feel this way, but the non knife carriers do.

If we all exercise some common sense and courtesy, we can change te way some of these people look at knives and those who carry them.

Paul
 
MikeMck, you obviously do not understand the disorderly conduct laws in many states either. If you cause a disturbance by your conduct, even if what your carrying is legal, you can be charged with disorderly conduct. That's how they nail people in states where open carry is legal with firearms, but they don't want you doing it (open carry) down the town's main street. You cause a disturbance which can be anything in the eyes of the law, from a oh my god to a riot and you are charged with disorderly conduct. Did you ever think the sword cuts both ways as well. Instead of making sheeple more accepting of knives, they will want laws to make what they thought was illegal, illegal for real. Just leave well enough alone until you really need that knife for something. You dont need a 5 inch blade to cut a box infront of the ladies a auxillary Save it for when you need it. If you guys think a couple months after 9/11 that you are going to make people fear knives less by whipping out a bowie to cut your apple in a crowd your wrong. Think before you act. You dont change peoples mind by rubbing their face in it. You have to educate one on one.
 
Another think Mrmck, You better get clear on whats a right, and what a law is. Any freakin city council or town board can pass a law, and unless it violates the constitution of the state and or the United States it will stand. You do have a right to own and sometimes use a gun almost everywhere in the US. (which they work on revoking). But you have no right to own and use a knife. Better be clear on that, regardless what you think. Just because something is not illegal does not make it a right in the real sense. Its just plain legal. I bet a hundred organized motivated people could get any city council to make carrying anything with a blade over 2 inches illegal. Something to think about if you piss the wrong people off. That would be much harder to do when it came to guns.
 
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