Being "discreet" and "sheeple friendly" is part of the problem

[OwenM]

I'm not going to try to reproduce the rant about sheeple that I had in mind earlier, and gave up on, and I can't tell anyone else what they should do, because I'm not in their situation.
For one thing, I have no problem carrying whatever I want in the workplace. My job requires a knife. Everyone carries some kind of pocket knife, at least. The company will give us little hawkbill slipjoints, electricians knives, and cheap hawkbill fixed blades (like a carpet knife) the same way they give us pliers and hammers. They're considered tools. We have to have them to do our jobs. I occasionally carry 4.5-5" fixed blades, and they rarely draw a comment. What's funny is that when someone does ask me "what do you need a knife like that for", it's usually when I'm cutting something for them. They make it so easy I respond with something like "looks like you're the one that needs it, why don't you get one?".
I've still made a point of telling supervisors when I've saved production time by fixing a problem with a knife or Leatherman tool, instead of calling maintenance, to make sure they know that by carrying the appropiate tools I am making them money. Have even suggested that they issue a quality multi-tool to everyone, but my immediate supervisor shot that down because people already lose too many of the cheap tools they're given. I can understand that, because it's very true. Still, it's a pretty safe bet they're not going to hassle me about something I use to help their production.

I don't really know what to say to someone who works in an office. If it were me, I'd buy all my coworkers an inexpensive SAK like a Recruit or Cadet for Christmas. Won't take long 'til they find out how useful it is.
My mother is a "sheeple" (I have no idea how she got that way, growing up with a blue collar ironworker, WWII vet for a father, in a house full of guns and knives), and a "white collar employee". Awhile back, I gave her a blue Micra, and a white Photon II. She tells me that she uses both all the time, and that her coworkers come to her to borrow them. She used to feel threatened by knives, and would comment on mine sometimes, since I won't even hesitate to carry a fixed blade IWB to church. Now she tells me stories about the people who come and borrow her Micra to cut things and open packages, and borrow the Photon to get to stuff behind their computers (she told me last week that the lights were out in the women's room at her work, and several women borrowed the Photon so they could go to the bathroom). She laughs at them.
How funny. Sheeple one day, gave her a Micra, and the next thing you know, she's laughing at other people because they're not prepared!
My best friend's wife is in sales, and told me a few weeks ago "I wish you were around the other day...I had all these things to distribute, and they had all this packing tape, and I didn't have anything to cut them with".
I gave her a Vnox Cadet that was sitting NIB in my drawer. A few days later she's excitedly telling me "I got to use my knife!..blah blah".
The other LM Micras, knives, etc, I've given to friends have gotten the same kind of response.
Can't believe how discovering how useful a simple thing like a knife can be excites them. I think they suddenly feel more independent or something.

So, yes, I use and carry my knives openly without regard to the reactions of the people around me. And, no, I don't think that seeing me use a knife makes them really want one. But, when they get one, and use it, and see how useful it is to them, suddenly they will no longer wonder why you have to carry one.
Only problem is, they're not going to buy one for themselves, because they don't think they need it. I have no plans to arm the world with SAKs from my own pocket, but for someone who works in an office, maybe a few SAKs wouldn't be a bad idea for Christmas gifts-don't forget your boss

 

[Buzzbait]

I think they suddenly feel more independent or something.

I sooooo understand that. I've been trying to figure out why knives are such a personal attachment to me. You perfectly described the feeling.

 

[mikemck]

Originally posted by Mike990
MikeMck, you obviously do not understand the disorderly conduct laws in many states either. If you cause a disturbance by your conduct, even if what your carrying is legal, you can be charged with disorderly conduct. That's how they nail people in states where open carry is legal with firearms, but they don't want you doing it (open carry) down the town's main street.

I understand the disorderly conduct laws very well indeed.
If you choose to let the possiblity of being harassed for carrying a knife stop you, that's your choice of course. You also need to understand that there are endless possibilities that the police can use to harass you if that is what they choose to do.

You cause a disturbance which can be anything in the eyes of the law, from a oh my god to a riot and you are charged with disorderly conduct. Did you ever think the sword cuts both ways as well. Instead of making sheeple more accepting of knives, they will want laws to make what they thought was illegal, illegal for real. Just leave well enough alone until you really need that knife for something. You dont need a 5 inch blade to cut a box infront of the ladies a auxillary Save it for when you need it.

Yes, let's just leave well enough alone and hope they don't outlaw our knives..
Maybe if we are lucky they will let us keep the knives we actually do "need".

If you guys think a couple months after 9/11 that you are going to make people fear knives less by whipping out a bowie to cut your apple in a crowd your wrong. Think before you act. You dont change peoples mind by rubbing their face in it. You have to educate one on one.

Yes, make sure to ask permission before using your knives from now on, lest someone take offense and take your knife away from you.

Another think Mrmck, You better get clear on whats a right, and what a law is

Well, it took awhile, but someone finally pointed out that carrying a knife is not a right. I was wondering why nobody brought this up.

You are correct, carrying a knife is not a right at all, but it's also not illegal, yet.

I bet a hundred organized motivated people could get any city council to make carrying anything with a blade over 2 inches illegal. Something to think about if you piss the wrong people off. That would be much harder to do when it came to guns.

Is there even an appropriate response to this? Your already beaten, and just waiting for the ax to fall. Walk on eggshells throughout your daily routine, praying you don't piss the wrong person off, and therefore get trod underfoot.

 

[92degrees]

OwenM hit on something big and got it here first. I was discussing this very thing with my wife at dinner. Whenever clients need a "premium" to give as a gift to donors, I suggest knives imprinted with their logo. Same for "favors" at events. I must have suggested this to 20 clients over the last 4 years and only 3 have said "yes." But, those resulted in hundreds (close to 1000) knives being handed out. My holiday gift to clients is always a SAK with my logo. Every gift my wife and I give -- Bar Mitzvah, graduation, birthdays -- is a SAK or multi-tool. Boss' retirement -- knife.

It really makes a difference. I've hardly created knife utopia around myself, but it is great to have clients come in with the little SAK on their keychain. A very good way to influence non-knife people.

 

[OwenM]

You reminded me...
Someone a bit more eloquent than I said in a past thread "a sense of empowerment".
I relate to that to, come to think of it.
The knife, first aid kit, hydraulic jack, water, oil, antifreeze, flashlights, tools, etc. that ride in my truck all say the same thing. Not that by having them nothing will happen, but when something does happen "I can handle it".
Sure beats hoping someone else will come along who can (Can I borrow your knife?-sounds awfully familiar).

92degrees....that is

 

[Mike990]

That's exactly right mikemck. We are walking on egg shells right now. The only reason that knives are not even more severely regulated is that people are unaware who is legally carrying them. Out of sight out of mind. Same reason firearm CCW works without ruffling too many feathers after it becomes legal. Law enforcement in most states could care less, because most state laws say somewhere, if the knife is being carried as a weapon then concealing it, in fact having it for that purpose is illegal and you can be charged. They charge who they want at taxpayer expense. Mounting a defense is on your nickel. So why should they push for tougher laws. Not like people are being mugged with pocket knives all that often. I am not trying to tell you who not to use your knife in front of. Just to use good judgment. We recently had a tragic national event that gave knives a black eye. Give things time to settle out. Its like the big hu-rah after Columbine. I just don't think you really need a big scary blade to open mail and boxes, is all I am saying. Not urging you to not carry one if its legal. In fact carry whatever is legal. Just decide what environment to use it in with some discretion. I carry the "scary" stuff, and always a tiny SAK as well. I use the SAK for mundane work it can handle. The other is along mostly for special circumstances and fun. Maybe I am getting old. I just found that going with the flow..not upsetting folks.....to a point.......works the best in the long run.

 

[Paul Work]

There are several people at work who carry knives because they've seen how useful mine is. Nothing tactical, but SAKs, multi-tools, and a few stockmans. Even a few women. They like the scissors on the SAKs.
If we show resonsibility in what we use and how we use it, maybe there won't be so many problems.

Paul

 

[Mitchell Knives]

I've come to the point that I really don't care what the sheeple think. I'll take out whatever knife I happen to be carrying regardless of who is around. Fortunately, all the knives I carry are legal. If people don't understand why I carry a knife, I usually try to explain it to them...a lot of these people arn't worth the effort. Most of them agree that it's a very useful item but, they still don't carry. I think most people have this image of a knife being only a weapon. They've been brainwashed by countless horror movies and news stories in which knives are depected negatively. As long as I'm not breaking the law, I'm not worried about it.

 

[mikemck]

Originally posted by Mike990
That's exactly right mikemck. We are walking on egg shells right now.

No, that's exactly wrong...I'm am NOT walking on eggshells, where knives or any other legal implements I own and use are concerned.

You however can continue to be herded about, and take whatever bones the general populace decides to throw you, and hope that you don't piss off the wrong person and lose even more than you already have.
At some point you have to take a stand and protect your rights and freedoms, or you will lose them.

I am not trying to tell you who not to use your knife in front of. Just to use good judgment. We recently had a tragic national event that gave knives a black eye. Give things time to settle out.

We have been steadily losing freedoms for years now, and recent events only make it easier to further erode the few freedoms we have left in this country. Carrying a knife does not need to take a backseat and I don't need to put on hold my use of a knife.

How long would you recommend that I wait for things to settle out?

Its like the big hu-rah after Columbine. I just don't think you really need a big scary blade to open mail and boxes, is all I am saying.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and again I will point out that it's not about what I NEED, it's about what I want to carry and what is legal for me to carry. You mistakenly believe that if we just keep quiet nobody will pay attention to us, and that's just not true. Burying your head in the sand and ignoring the problem does not make it go away, you just end up being surprised when you have nothing left.

Not urging you to not carry one if its legal. In fact carry whatever is legal. Just decide what environment to use it in with some discretion. I carry the "scary" stuff, and always a tiny SAK as well. I use the SAK for mundane work it can handle. The other is along mostly for special circumstances and fun. Maybe I am getting old. I just found that going with the flow..not upsetting folks.....to a point.......works the best in the long run.

No, going along, conforming, and not upsetting folks does not work best in the long run, unless by best you mean the loss of your rights and freedoms.
Apathetic gun owners have done irreperable damage by going along, expecting someone else to preserve the 2nd, and here you are advocating that knife owners do the same.

History bears this out, if you take the time to understand it.

 

[psy-ops]

does a dective go around flashing his gun and badge in public "just to desensitize sheeple" ?

does a fireman walk around town with an axe?

I think playing it COOL! (i.e. discretion) is important UNTIL THE RIGHT TIME! If there is an emergency and you use a knife to help out, that is great that is showing people that having a Large knife is important.


I think someone earlier said it that the context determines need and if you just carry a huge bowie around without context and flash it than I think the majority will vote against you. if you compromise and BLEND IN than people will slowly start carrying sak's than move up.

I remember in college in the 80's there was a country boy who brought his rifle to the dorms. One day he shot a squirrel and paraded it through the dorms in front of the women and everyone. He thought he was hot $hit. Well I know he got into a $hit load of trouble and he didn't make it the whole semester. I think he could have kept his rifle and ate all the squirrel he wanted if he played it cool!


low profile is what is needed to survive in this time. when dueling gets voted back by popular demand than we can carry swords. I would rather be low key carry a sak in one pocket and a large folder or fixed discreetly carried to be used when necessary. than not be allowed to carry a nail file and have my one moment when I stood up.

I think making a stand is great but timing is of the essence. there were many martyrs before mlk jc and gandhi but we don't remember them. TIMING! chose your time. don't lose your time.

 

[92degrees]

This is the disconnect for me -- I don't understand how carrying and using a less-threatening knife, or a smaller knife, or a smaller knife in addition to your larger more tactical blade, is walking on eggshells or contributing to the demise of our rights. I think that it's making an effort to acknowledge the climate in our society and not contribute to peoples' (unfounded) fears.

ElectricZombie, as soon as we stop caring what anyone else thinks we become extremists and that's as dangerous to "our" side as it is to "theirs." There are a lot fewer of "us," believe me.

 

[amywilkerson]

Very interesting and thought provoking thread! I have read some very intelligent and well thought-out comments and have to say that this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

I agree with most of you. Buzzbait is correct in saying "change is slow". As far as I know, I am the only person (out of 17 people) where I work who carries a knife. Only two of my coworkers are aware that I carry a knife every day. There are others who know I collect knives as a hobby, but they don't know I also carry one every day.

In January, I hung my Blade Magazine 2002 calendar on my office wall. The calendar immediately got lots of curious looks, some people even leaned over my desk to get a better look at it. I heard some people utter curious "Hmms!" but no one has questioned me about my choice of calendar subject. I think they have put 2 and 2 together and have come to realize that I am interested in knives, but most of them probably aren't sure to what degree I am interested. Still, something as simple as a knife calendar is my way of introducing my coworkers to the idea that knives are acceptable to me. To use Buzzbait's words, this is just one small step I am taking in winning my coworkers over. And when I start driving my '72 Cutlass with license plates that say "CUTLERY", I'm sure it will open their eyes even more. I am taking tiny steps, which is comfortable for me and my coworkers, to make knives acceptable where I work. There is no company policy on knives whatsoever, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Mike, you are passionate about your view on the matter, and that is very good. You have raised some very good points, and I am guilty as charged too. But you must make allowances for those of us who aren't willing to charge the perceived enemy and risk all-out war, but would rather infiltrate them slowly and win them over to our side.

 

[Mike990]

Mikemck, you keep talking about rights and freedoms being eroded. We agreed you dont have any in rights in regards to knives. If you think your going to make knives popular by waving yours around people who you know are going to be uncomfortable, when it was not really necessary, just because you chose to and it was legal, your mistaken. That will win no followers to the cause. The fellow that had the best idea, was the one that suggested selling companies on engraved knives for incentives. Gun rights are a recognized right, that has a firm legal basis in the constitution. Remember you accused those of us that are respectful of others as part of the problem. So I am anti knife because I open my mail with my Sak classic instead of my Sifu in front of my co-workers. How old are you? How many times did you say you have been around the block? I am not picking on you for your knife use, your the one that said us low key guys were the problem.

 

[Safety Guy]

Like Amy said, there is room for both types of "intervention," depending on your circumstances. As for me, many days I'm in the mood to "stir up the pot," and sometimes I'm not.

I wish I had some blade T-shirts to wear around. That would be another idea.

Karl

 

[mikemck]

Originally posted by Mike990
Mikemck, you keep talking about rights and freedoms being eroded. We agreed you dont have any in rights in regards to knives.

Yes, we do agree that we do not have rights, but we do have freedoms. At this point in time, the freedom to carry a knife is slowly but surely being diminished, much as a muscle will atrophy from disuse.
If we are very careful to only use "sheeple friendly" knives in public, and save our "real knives" for when we are alone, we contribute to the problem.
Furthermore, when we are then "caught" using our real knives unexpectedly, and we look furtive or otherwise uncomfortable, we contribute to the belief that knives are evil and dangerous.

However, if you casually open up your SERE 2000 or BM 710 and use it just as you would your SAK, not only do you not endanger innocent bystanders with your tactical eviscerator, you just might manage to help people understand that knives are just tools, and regular joes actually do use them in their everyday lives.

If you think your going to make knives popular by waving yours around people who you know are going to be uncomfortable, when it was not really necessary, just because you chose to and it was legal, your mistaken. That will win no followers to the cause.

Somehow you have the mistaken belief that I want to wave my knife around, and I want other people to do the same, which is as far from my stance as is possible.

I am saying, again, that people should use what they carry and quit letting the "sheeple" herd them around.
If you carry a SERE 2000, and it's legal, open it up and use it just as you would your "sheeple" knife. Don't wave it around like some immature moron, do refrain from knifesturbating around people, and do use some commonsense, but refuse to be herded about.

Gun rights are a recognized right, that has a firm legal basis in the constitution

And yet, somehow, the RKBA is still not an acknowledged right in most every state in America...how do you explain that? I don't even want to get into the sorry state that the 2nd Amendment is in though.

Remember you accused those of us that are respectful of others as part of the problem.

Pandering to people is not being respectful, as far as I am concerned. My knives are not dangerous for those around me, and therefore are none of anyone's business but mine. It's that simple.
Furthermore, it is patently obvious that the "low key" approach to knife use and ownership is not working, as we have been doing it for years now, and now look where we are?
We are moving backwards, not forwards.

So I am anti knife because I open my mail with my Sak classic instead of my Sifu in front of my co-workers. How old are you? How many times did you say you have been around the block? I am not picking on you for your knife use, your the one that said us low key guys were the problem.

How does my age figure factor into the validity of this discussion? Anyone, young or old, can determine for themselves where knife owners were 20 years ago and where we are at now.
And then, using logic, can draw the inference that whatever it is that knife owners have been doing, is certainly not working.
Therefore, it might be time to try something different..

If you cannot understand that pandering to people and calling it respect is only helping to further castigate knife owners in general, then I really don't think I can explain it any better than I have.

But, it is your opinion, and I do respect it, and wish you the best.

 

[mikemck]

amywilkerson,

You have the right idea, and I applaud you for it. Taking a chance and standing out a bit in the workplace is a risky bet to be sure, but if everyone did this we could really make a difference.

I am passionate, that's for sure. I love knives...I love carrying 'em, I love using 'em, etc...And what's more, I not only want that for myself, I want it for the next generation also.

We all have to understand that just laying low and hoping we don't attract too much attention does not work now, and it never has, and it never will.

Everything does change. It can change for the better or it can change for the worse, but change it will. Understanding that and then taking steps to ensure that you assert whatever influence you can on that change is critical.

Knuckling under and hoping you don't get trampled to badly is a poor strategy...

 

[swede79]

Good thread, Mikemck. I agree fully.

Trying to "get along" with firearms has resulted in losing in almost every election.

Now when sheeple at work (in an office) point at my CS Voyager and ask a rude question, I tell them to mind their own damn business.

Maybe I'm just getting more belligerent in my old age...

 

[shortgoth]

Great, interesting, and intelligent thread. After reading it I just wanted to say this:

"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up
because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't
speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for
the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they
came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

It's a famous quote, and applies perfectly to what happened to "weapons"/tools in this country. Over here, you can (and often will) be arrested for a SAK. This has slowly happened over the last few decades, as more and more politicians realised they can win votes by making "weapons" illegal. Given your current president and the general political status over there, it could easily happen to you too.

I don't pander to "sheeple", I carry my knives clipped to various pockets, show them off to everyone at work, and come into contact with hundreds of members of the public every day at work, yet so far have recieved no complaints about my "illegal weapons". The only reason I carry a "sheeple friendly" knife is to appease the LEOs. In my old job, I would wander around with a medium-sized (5-6") fixed blade because I could legally get away with it, which is no longer the case.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that most "sheeple" won't complain about your knives, but the point about the few that do complain getting the laws changed is very true. Then you'll be left with no choice but to carry a "sheeple friendly" knife to keep from being arrested.

Believe me, this is a $hit country with $hit laws where my hobbies are concerned, and openly carrying big tactical "scary" knives will only get you all into the same situation.

 

[OwenM]

Originally posted by shortgoth
Given your current president and the general political status over there, it could easily happen to you too.

Who do you think our current President is?

 

[Steve-O]

Thanks mikemck,

Through you and others like you, I have been encouraged. I was always the low key person and never showed my love of, or knowledge of knives. I started carrying and using some of my larger knives at work (gradually, in the last couple years, nothing more than 4")...and slowly, people came to accept them as tools.


In the past..I would never show a knife to *anyone*...unless they asked, now, I am known as the 'knife guy' at work. People ask my opinion about various knives, and a few ask if I would sharpen their knives for them (most people don't really want sharp knives ).

I am through pussyfooting around! Get out there and tell people...it works!

Next....firearms!


Steve-O