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Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Mo2, May 14, 2019.
That's what I'm saying...
Then we agree, Imho alchemy-1 is an idiot.
It doesn't affect the actual hardness, the assertion is that the coating affects the metrology. Meaning, it may skew the measurement results of the actual hardness. So, as the assertion goes, to know the actual hardness of the steel and not have any interference, one would need to eliminate the coating.
Exactly my point, the rockwell testing on this blade wasn't done correctly.
@skyhorse No, he is not an idiot
Take it down a notch.
No one is born knowing any of this stuff and it's when strange things happen that we get a window into the reality of the inner workings of how things function.
Alchemy is very passionate about knives and isn't intending to slander Benchmade. He is geniune in his intentions.
No, I don't think he's an idiot. I think he is testing this like a DLC coated blade, where the coating wouldn't measurably affect hardness testing. I think he's on the right track to point out that the 3V is far too soft. I just think he should strive to be as accurate as possible if he's going to make such a claim, because making an assertion that's possibly inaccurate, while made with good intentions, isn't the right way to conduct dialog about such a problem.
Regardless of that the performance is not what you'd expect from most 3v from all the people testing them out. It is indeed showing what softer 3v would do.
Let's say we remove the coating and give it a nice polish before testing again. And its 57hrc or even 58hrc. Does that change anything? No. The fact of the matter is how it's performing. Besides that they do claim 3v to be from 55-58hrc in there pdf catalog. And Crucible’s pdf on 3v suggests 58+ is idea and around 60 optimal. It also gives data and compares it to other steels. The op has the graph with the info.
Again Benchmade intended on this steel to be like this regardless of hrc. It's not a bad heat treatment despite whatever the hrc is. And being as thin a blade that it is, maybe this is what they wanted for the people they are targeting this knife for in the market.
Most factory knives are too soft.....and do not have optimal ht,and nost people do not notice it,as they do not use knives,except to cut paper
Then this thread isnt for them and they would likely be getting 8cr13mov regardless. Ie most people. They may also wonder why there edge rolls over so easily when the 8cr13mov may not (obviously depends on the task of course).
Sometimes ignorance is bliss. And there's nothing wrong with that.
And this is the ENTIRE point of the conversation. This is NOT about Benchmade. It just so happens that that’s the knife I got data on first.
There is when companies are purposefully marketing items in a certain light and they do not live up to the claims. That’s the type of thing that class action suits are filed over. We, the knife community, are just too high and mighty to be objective about problems and we want to take up for the companies we love and the items we spent our money on. It’s human nature, but it really puts the consumer in a bad spot. Spending good money after bad.
The fact that an adult needs to get on a public forum and name call lets me know all I need to know about an individual. Again, I never brought any of this over here and went straight to the source.
My intent is to do nothing more than have a conversation, learn, and grow as a community.
Companies are selling us things that do not live up to their claims and they have been. We need to stop eating one another because of pride and bias and band together so that we all receive better products. Infighting does the total opposite of that.
Honestly, I think this is the same answer you're going to get from Benchmade. Presumably they're getting all of their 3V heat treated the same, whether it's used in the Puukko, Bailout, 591 Boost, or the Outlast, and they want it to be maximized for toughness rather than edge retention. Two of the four knives they make in 3V (591 Boost and the Outlast) are specifically designed with a flat, blunt tip for prying, and they said that in their testing they've bent blades to 90 degrees without breaking them.
Yes 55-58 HRC is soft for 3V, and it maximizes toughness over all else. 3V can still be made harder without compromising too much toughness, but Benchmade made the conscious decision to not do that. They didn't lie about what HRC they treated the steel to, and the Bailout above is in specifications.
Ultimately the 3V folders are mostly about marketing (I can't think of another company that is using 3V in a folder right now, besides a few Hinderer limited runs). Ultimately I think they're marketing this to the general public more than to us knife nerds, people who might be a little more abusive towards their knives.
I’ve never said anyone lied. People keep quoting HRC range, but there is no primary source, that I could find for this info directly related to the Bailout.
We do not know what @Benchmade is going to say because they do not seem to want to respond. Even though many people have tried to reach out to them and tag them on various platforms/different methods.
If the answer is as simple as people keep stating, that’s a 2 second response that doesn’t even need to be thought about. Why keep silent when you can just fall back on that as your answer? It just doesn’t make sense.
And as you stated, 3v can be run harder with little to no adverse affects, but allowing “professionals” to keep a sharp tool in their pocket. I think “professionals” do more than pry.
Here's the primary source, page 92 of Benchmade's 2019 catalog: https://www.benchmade.com/media/forms/2019_Benchmade_Catalog.pdf
Thank you. That is the chart that I have seen, but not directly linked to Benchmade. I appreciate that. In reading that, it even states that the steel will be “tough” while maintaining a “good” cutting edge. That’s their words and not mine. I think we can all agree that these knives have not shown us that they're “tough” AND maintain a “good” cutting edge, no? That comes right back to the heat treat being too low, no?
They've definitely showed us they're tough, and I agree the cutting edge could be better. I'd say the cutting edge qualifies as "good enough" for most people (especially compared to cheaper knives with alphabet soup steels, 5Cr, 8Cr, 440whatever, etc.), but I agree we (as knife nerds) shouldn't be satisfied with "good enough" we should want more.
I saw on instagram that you emailed Benchmade, I've received email responses from their Customer Service up two weeks after initially emailing them, so them not replying to an email within 24 hours is par for the course. I've called them and the CS rep I spoke to told me that their first priority is phone calls, then they respond to emails in between phone calls, that's why it can take a while. I'm not sure if their social media people are part of the marketing or CS team, so who knows if or when you'll get an answer through instagram. I'm sure they'll answer, but they'll take their time to formulate something, especially since this has become a "thing" now.
Yes, that’s why I want to have the convo. I don’t care if I have to spend $150-$200+ on a knife, but am I getting that value in the product. That’s what we all should want. Nothing more, nothing less. Plenty of people cruise town in a Ferrari, but they still want all the HP Ferrari advertises.
I know for a fact they are aware and they have said they are going to respond. I have proof of it.
I personally think they should listen to what the customers want.
Do you need a knife A FOLDER that you can bend the blade 90 degrees? Nope. Use a fixed blade if you are going to be that hard on a knife. The handle would long break before the blade.
The 2 hardness ranges I use for 3V are 59/60 (59.5 best case) and 61 HRC with a low temper protocol By Peters.
The higher hardness rating will reduce toughness VERY slightly, but increase edge stability (support thinner edge) and boost corrosion resistance. 59/60 is used for maximum toughness. I know 58 is tougher but I've been using this for a long time. The results have been excellent.
The hardness rating on 55-58 is insane. That is way way too soft. You give up so much edge holding. Even if they ran the steel at 59 or 60 that would be more than tough enough as a folder. As long as HT is done correctly. Users would benefit from increased edge holding and less rolling.
Just my 2 cents.
58 on the absolute high end. And I agree, but we’re so prideful as a community, we’d rather argue amongst one another rather than make it clear what we want and hold a company to that. If we stick together everyone wins.