Benchmade and Spyderco

Spyderco here also. I have one BM and it is from 1992. It is a fine old knife, made in the USA but nothing they make today just grabs me with that 'I just gotta have it feeling' like the Spydies do.
 
So, to reiterate, Spyderco gives you all the performance you could ever need, at the least possible price. For the extras, go to Benchmade. the arguments or Benchmade, essentially, have been as follows:

I want the AXIS lock
I want full steel liners
I hate FRN
I hate lockbacks
Spydercos feel cheap

Now, I've never seen a need for the AXIS lock. Lockbacks have always worked just fine for me, and on my Griptillian, as much as I love the blade profile and the ergonomics of the handle, the tiny increase in "smoothness" from the AXIS lock doesn't remotely make up for the decrease in function from the thick blade or the oval opening hole. And Spyderco doesn't include full steel liners because, according to their exhaustive testing, the liners don't actually increase the strength of the knife. It's counterintuitive, but the pins go before the handle does. In my opinion, all the liners and AXIS lock really do is add to the price of the knife. That's my opinion. If you like the AXIS lock enough to pay extra for it, then Benchmade's the only way to go.

And all of the criticism I've ever heard levelled at Spyderco boils down to one of two things: "they all look the same/they're not innovative" and "FRN/lockbacks/non-adjustable poivots just feel cheap to me". The first point is so unbelievably, spectacularly wrong that it's hard to figure out just how to respond to it. :D Just looking at the first few pages of their online catalog, I see two different rescue knives (one in H1), a stainless/Ti heavy-duty tactical, a fixed-blade skinner designed by Bill Moran (in two different blade profiles), an economy knife, a folding fillet knife, a large everyday folder designed by Frank Centofante (with the thinnest blade you'll ever see on a production one-hander, BTW), a monster lockback by James Keating, a giant, fully-serrated reverse-S "last-ditch defense" knife, a tiny little reverse-S Cricket, a hawkbill economy knife, another rescue, and four different flavors of Delica (FRN, SS, carbon fiber, and trainer). That's two pages out of ten. And do ya wanna talk about the current limited editions and the catalog update flier? They innovate. ;) :D

As for "feeling cheap", well, that's what the whole deal boils down to. Are you willing to pay extra for the prestige features that Benchmade offers? Even if it compromises the knife's function with a thicker, saber-ground blade? The answer may ver well be "yes". Function isn't all there is in life; beauty's important, too. I'll admit I spent over a hundred dollars for my bone-handled Kiwi and a William Henry sheath to go with it, when my $30 Meerkat would've done the same job just as well. Hell, the Meerkat may even have better edge geometry. But the Kiwi's so pretty... ;)
If you want a knife that the average person'll be blown away by the first time they see it, that you'll be really proud of every time you look at it, and will do everything you want it to, and you're prepared to spend extra for that pride in ownership, buy a Benchmade. You'll never regret it.
If you want a knife that's "everything you need and no more", get a Spydie Calypso, and cultivate a subtler appreciation for the thinness of the edge, the perfect control of that finger choil, and the relationship between you and that knife. It trusts you not to abuse that thin point by turning screws or throwing it at trees, and it rewards you with the best performance you'll ever get out of a one-hander.

To me, it's a lot like choosing a woman, actually. The flash-bang of a gorgeous one is really impressive to everybody who sees her on your arm, but an intelligent, deep woman'll still turn you on after the New Relationship Energy's worn off. ;) :D
 
Grover_Cephas said:
(Although I do have a hard time justifying doing business with Benchmade after their blatant theft of the Spyderco opening hole trademark... :rolleyes: )
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Didn't they pay Spyderco for the use of the hole, back when they used to use it on the AFCK's? What blatant theft are you speaking of?

As far as the Woman analogy, an intelectual only goes so far. You can have all that in your friends. Without physical attraction in a lover, there isn't anything that differentiates from a friend. Don't settle for less. Hold out for what you really want. The whole package.

I don't like that analogy, because you don't "own" women. If I could just pick all the features in a woman, with a lifetime satisfaction guarantee, things would be a lot weirder.

I like to liken it owning a Vehicle. Sure the mini-van does it's job, but I'll take the Porsche, BMW, or Lamborghini.

It was boiled down to the Spydie Military vs BM 806D2 AFCK for me. Well, the AXIS lock helped me choose the winner. I bought two 806's instead of one of each. IMO, Spyderco's higher end knives are below BM's. As far as the cheapies are concerned, (FRN, Non-adjustable Rivet pivots) Spydie all the way. Cool designs, and VG-10 made in Japan.

Both have merit, and they are my favourite companies. Spydies for my beaters and BenchMade for my precision tools. Spydies are to Toyota as Benchmades are to BMW. Both deserve loyal fans.
 
I like both equally, and think that Benchmade makes a better product, and backs it up better, while Spyderco makes a better cutting tool, and at a better price.
 
Why we'd spend too much time arguing about the two obvious leaders in the folder industry, I dunno! Putting aside any issues of IP policy, the two companies between them have leapfrogged each other in leading the folder industry to where it is today, IMO.

I do go back and forth on which company's products I find more interesting overall. A few years ago, it seemed I loved every new Benchmade that came out, and while I also liked the then-new Spydercos, my $ went to BM. In the past couple of years, that's reversed a bit, and I tend to find Spyderco's new knives more interesting, and it's Spyderco where I'm spending more $. New-product-wise, the waved endura is the coolest new knife out there IMO (along with the potential of other waved Spydercos), and I can't remember looking forward to the release of any knife as much as I'm looking forward to the Spyderco pickle.

That said, if you go knife-by-knife, there are unbelieveable products from both companies. I don't think there's any knife in the world that matches the Calypso Jr., for example, and upcoming release in ZDP-189 just emphasizes that it will remain without peer. On Benchmade's side, I still don't think there's anything that can match the 710 M-2 as a 4"-blade EDC/hard-use/defense knife -- er, unless it's the Axis AFCK in tool steel, the other best 4" EDC/defense knife.

Joe
 
Grover_Cephas said:
And all of the criticism I've ever heard levelled at Spyderco boils down to one of two things: "they all look the same/they're not innovative" and "FRN/lockbacks/non-adjustable poivots just feel cheap to me". The first point is so unbelievably, spectacularly wrong that it's hard to figure out just how to respond to it.
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Yes, I couldn't believe it myself. I was under the impression that Spyderco leads hands down when it comes to innovation.
These said, I like some BM very much and I agree they make great products too, but most of my knives are Spydies. :)
 
Myamoto Musashi said:
Didn't they pay Spyderco for the use of the hole, back when they used to use it on the AFCK's? What blatant theft are you speaking of?
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With the AFCK, yes, they did license the hole (the end of that license is the reason for their oval holes today, despite the posturing about it being "more ergonomic"). With the recent Skirmish, though, they did no such thing. The proto photos showed that they were also ripping off Ken Onion's trademark of three (non functional) round holes in decreasing sizes. They've since added a fourth hole to dodge _that_ issue, but continue to shamelessly use Spyderco's trademark unlicensed, and have even introduced another offending knife, the mini-skirmish. This does _not_ reflect on the quality of their products, but it akes me fairly uncomfortable dealing with them.

As for the wimmins, not to get too far afield, but I'll take an attractive intelligent woman over a blonde bombshell any day of the week. I just celebrated my six-year anniversary with my girlfriend, while the popular pretty people I knew in high school lasted a matter of months in their relationships before getting sick of each other. "Attractive" and "pretty" are two different things. IMO, my Calypso Jr is attractive, while the BM 690 is pretty.

'Course, my new Bark River mini-Northstar... That's _gorgeous_! ;) :D
 
I have knives from both companies and I'm hesitant to call one my favorite. Although, if you look at the knives in my drawer you would find more Benchmades than Spydercos.
 
Some of the Bench Made Autos are pretty cool. My cousin showed me his that he took with him to Iraq I guess. Or maybe he got it there, I don't recall. Anyway it was probably the only BM I've seen in recent times that I'd buy. I wish it could be carried legally. I still carry my upgraded Salt 1 with the new body I made for it ala the Calypso Jr.

Hey Joe. It's getting scary. :-) Besides Scotch we agree on something else. The CJ is IMO one of the best knives to come out in recent times also. I will own one in the ZDP189 also. Two thumbs up on that one. I like the CJ so much I emulated it with my FRN Salt 1's new clothes so I could still have that great feel in the hand with my summer time water and outdoor hot and sweaty corrosion resistant steel. All titanium, (screws too) and lignum wood. Long time marine use wood. Love this knife even if I do say so myself.

I guess that is another reason why I love Spyderco more. A back yard mechanic like myself can work on them. Bench Mades are so high tech and technical from all the machining that I can't have any 'fun' with them like this.

DoubleDuty-copy.jpg
 
Grover_Cephas said:
With the AFCK, yes, they did license the hole (the end of that license is the reason for their oval holes today, despite the posturing about it being "more ergonomic"). With the recent Skirmish, though, they did no such thing. The proto photos showed that they were also ripping off Ken Onion's trademark of three (non functional) round holes in decreasing sizes. They've since added a fourth hole to dodge _that_ issue, but continue to shamelessly use Spyderco's trademark unlicensed, and have even introduced another offending knife, the mini-skirmish. This does _not_ reflect on the quality of their products, but it akes me fairly uncomfortable dealing with them.
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Is it true that After Spyderco's Patent time expired, it is now only considered a trade-mark, which has a little different meaning? Benchmade honored the patent, by paying royalties, but now the trade-mark of the hole is more the over-all look of the knife, instead of the fuction of opening. So, you're right, they got around that with the Skirmish by adding more holes. (By the way, oval holes suck compared to Spydie Round Holes)

I wish everyone could just use Holes, without all the fuss; It's the best opening style yet.

I agree with you, BM is covertly ripping off the Hole. Sheisterz. I don't really care, though. I don't care who invented the wheel, as long as I've got 'em on my ride.

It's great that the Waved Endura has Ernest's permission. The Waved Endura is one of my Favourite blades. I would buy 'em with or without the proper permissions. :eek:

Since I don't know him or Sal, It's all the same: Big, rich companies are getting richer off me. I don't care what they do, so long as they are making Quality products. They don't care what I do, so long as I'm giving them MONEY.

P.S. Holes were meant to be violated.
 
I would have to give the nod to spyderco for three reasons (however I like both companies):
Integrity
Design (ergonomics and cutting capability)
Innovation: not afraid of radical new things: ie, dodo, rescue sheepsfoot, polywog, and so many others.
ELU Interaction.

To me, all that BM has going for it is the axis compared to BM. While the Axis *is* awesome, the other factors really make a better knife. Now, I really enjoy using an axis folder, which means my 940 (or some other axis) will always be my primary EDC, because I dont need great cutting or geyometry to open the mail, cut plastic etc, and the axis is more fun. However, the calypso Jr usually rides shotgun, and it is the one I go to when I need to do anything deep or precise. IE, I was cutting an onion the other day, the dull (not shaving...because I am lazy) Caly outcut the shaving 940, even though the caly had a huge length disadvantage for the task.
 
I don't have an opinion on any of this, but isn't it funny that you can patent the lack of something (a hole in a blade)?

I personally prefer thumbstuds.....howeverrrr.....don't really need either in an axis!

Of course, I prefer a flipper to a thumbstead.
 
Myamoto Musashi said:
P.S. Holes were meant to be violated.
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LMAO... :)


Artfully, I'm assuming I'm on of those "rabid Benchmade fans" you speak of because I don't like liner locks, but I do like Axis locks.

I happen to be a fan of both companies, but it goes on a knife by knife basis.

Spyderco has a rabid following here primarily because of their activity on this forum.

The round hole is a trademark of Spyderco, not a patent. It is the responsibility of every trademark holder to pursue possible violations of their trademark or they could be forced to forfeit it. I personally do not feel that Neil Blackwood's use of three holes (now,4 on the BM) is a violation of the trademark, but the courts will decide that.

Service, Benchmade has been much better service wise for me than Spyderco. I think their service is hyped a lot.

Design, the Axis lock is the best lock design available and I have yet to be proven differently IMO. I just wish they'd use it in every knife, or at least more of them.

I like Spyderco because they have a lot of lock backs which I'm a big fan of. They also tend to have good cutting geometry. I think they make too many knives that are politically correct and somewhat goofy, but to each his own.

Integrity, There's a lot of companies violating copyright or trademarks, Spyderco fans are focusing on one issue that the courts have not even decided on yet to my knowledge. This horse has been kicked to death in the court of public opinion. As a major player in the industry I'm sure Benchmade knows where they stand and are prepared to deal with the ramifications. Everyone loves to use the phrase "there's two sides to every story", I guess that does not apply to Benchmade.

An example of this would be Microsoft going after a kid who had a web page named "mikerowesoft", everyone lambasted the "Big Microsoft" for going after a poor kid offering web development. What the Anti's didn't realize, or care to know, was that MS is obligated to go after the kid and let the courts decide.

I give a lot of credit to Benchmade for being very competitive in the knife industry and carrying a large percentage of their line made from US materials. They even switched from ATS-34 to 154CM a few years ago because it's American made steel.

If people want to talk about sell outs and crooks in the knife industry there are a lot more debates to be had then the Spyderco/Benchmade one.

Let's see, SOG, Cold Steel, Dalton and some others "modified" the design of the Axis lock and came out with copycat products. Where's the outrage?

Tim Leatherman sold out a huge percentage of people who buy is products when he came out against Bush and the war on terror prior to the last election. Yet people "on the other side" still buy his products every day and he's busy filling military contracts.

Gerber is now knocking off Carson designs. Where's the outrage?

Benchmade drills 4 holes in their blade and the worlds going to end... :confused:
 
let me explain my point of view on integrity. No it is not a specific reason to buy spyderco knives, but it makes me like the company better. Also, the lack of integrity is to be expected, thus, when I see integrity in a company, that is a plus, but the lack of it is not a *huge* minus. For example, I still buy BM knives, but I will not buy a skirmish or mini. I would not buy a Carson or axis knock off either.
 
Humm. Interesting. The ongoing "Spyderco vs. Benchmade" threads are almost as common as the "Sebenza vs. Strider" threads :D

One trend I noticed though... Back about 3-4 years ago, I seem to recall that these threads would have been pretty much in favor of Benchmade, but now, Spyderco seems to have the vote. Both companies are producing new knives like crazy, so I guess Spyderco has probably hit the right nerve.

Personally, I have a few Spydercos which I enjoy. I've been wanting to get a Benchmade axis for a long time, but none of the current models appeal to me. My reaction the the Benchmade catalog is quite different from the Spyderco one. I can see myself buying about half the knives that Spyderco produce. My next fixed blade will probably be a Benchmade Outbounder though, followed closely by the Spyderco Kumo, when available.

Guy
 
I'm also a fan of Both Spyderco and Benchmade, Though recently I've been buying more Benchmade. I'm surprised more people haven't spoken up about Benchmade giving credit where its due- I've never been given reason to think they "rip off" a designer or manufacturer. In fact BM catalogs and web sites list designers for all models not produced "in house."

I think they're both great companies who offer great products.
 
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