Benchmade using spyderhole?

yep, I don't see 'only' in that statement

I don't either. Maybe because I never said that?

Howard Viele is licensed to use the opening hole as are most of the other state side knife makers doing it on knives they make and sell. Only overseas have I come across a few that refuse to pay the very reasonable fee to Spyderco to use it legally. Its not that hard to license unless you are just a crap maker, nor is is worth the turmoil it would cause to just start using it without doing the right thing and asking the right way first.

The bug on the blade logo is a recent thing to Spyderco knives BTW. But I guess if you just want to put a Spyder on your blade you can just slap one of those on there too with the hole and maybe even stick a Butterfly right behind it eating the bug just to get your point across real good. I mean why not go all the way right?



STR
 
I don't either. Maybe because I never said that?
Then what did you say?
The Spyderhole is the single one thing that identifies a Spyderco

And I mention Viele not for using the opening hole, but for the three 'circular through holes' which obviously violate the trademark of having a round hole through the blade, since the holes don't have to be functional to be covered by trademark. Shouldn't be functional, imo, and as part of the law.

Since everyone is so adamant about adhering to the law exactly as it is here and now, I'm certain no one wants restrictions on automatic knives, balisongs, or length restrictions in certain jurisdictions to be changed anywhere, at any time. The law is the law, and the courts should never amend prior decisions, right?
 
Come on. If you are going to quote me at least quote the whole statement.

The Spyderhole is the single one thing that identifies a Spyderco and the one feature that stands out among all others.

You seem to have selective vision tonight my friend.

Thats fine though. I'm not going to continue this anymore with you. I just wanted to clarify your comments to get a grasp of what exactly makes you think the way you do. Not that this is a bad thing. I was more curious than anything else about how you came to your opinion. To each their own.

Any one of us knows in our hearts when something is right and when something is wrong. We all live with denial of some form everyday. It doesn't change whats right or wrong though, only our view of it.


STR
 
Hey everybody, let's all take a break and take a trip back to May 29, 1998, when Spyderco began putting stuff online (http://web.archive.org/web/19980529093433/www.spyderco.com/faq.html). Note, this is *before* the expiration of the patent, which is important to the patent-to-trademark idea.

So, in our archived 1998 version of the site, we can access the FAQs section--which is presented by the link above--and we can see the use of the term "Spyderco Trademark Round Hole" as a main identifier of a knife being a Spyderco, aside from the obvious "Spyderco" word itself. It would seem that there's a long track record of association of the hole as a *trademark* of Spyderco, a track record easily accessible by everybody.

And, if you want to do some more intertemporal, intellectual right investigating, I suggest http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.spyderco.com.
 
...

Since everyone is so adamant about adhering to the law exactly as it is here and now, I'm certain no one wants restrictions on automatic knives, balisongs, or length restrictions in certain jurisdictions to be changed anywhere, at any time. The law is the law, and the courts should never amend prior decisions, right?
For that statement to be substantive, one would actually have to believe that, we aren’t “people”; weapons (for that’s what all knives have the potential to be) aren’t “arms”; and being thrown in jail and your property or money confiscated isn’t an “infringement”. All are false, and since they violate the supreme law of the land (USC) they are merely a violation of the law. Any statute that violates the USC is in all actuality a violation of the law.
 
The write up for the knife reads like its a Byrd folder. This came up just a minute ago on another forum. Could it be that BM has the Byrd plant making the knife for them under contract maybe. Its the same blade steel.

I think BM needs to rewrite that first sentence in the description though. It read to me like it had a titanium blade. Then later at the bottom you find out what it really is. http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=10750

STR
 
Selective vision? The entire statement only reinforces the fact that you are saying that the hole is the only thing on the knife that identifies it as a Spyderco. The name, the bug, Sal or Eric's initials, nothing 'among all other' features IDs it as a Spyder. Among all others, it is the one feature that stands out, and the single one thing that identifies a Spyderco. That is what you said, in entirety this time.

I don't want BM or any other company to use the hole on a bunch of knives. I'd really rather Spyderco use studs on at least a few models. I can't recall all the times I've covered up the hole in a pic of a knife and squinted my eyes, or colored it over in MS paint to see how much better the knife would carry in my pocket. It's a matter of principle and legal interpretation to me (shocking as it may be to the holier than thou crowd)
 
The hole patent expired. So is life and get over it.

Now it is a trademark issue.

As brought up elsewhere, there may be a legal basis for interpreting the trademark as improper (as the hole provides utility).

If that were found to be the case, somehow I don't think the knife making world would be greatfull for the opening up of the feature to other knives (but I bet they would add the feature to their lines post-haste).

In response to a somewhat unkind reply:

The point of the picture was Spyderco acknowledged another's design (Steve indicated this earlier in this thread). They didn't have to but they did. If you do not believe that a company is required to acknowledge a patent/trademark/etc, look at Cold Steel's 'waves'. Not only are they making a nicer profit, but they are taking credit for their 'innovative' opening method which is very innovative; just not on their behalf. I suppose I see much of this in terms of respect for the innovation and intelligence of others. Stealing another's words, ideas, etc is a massive slap in the face to the innovator and shows a complete lack of respect. Respect may be a more common part to morality or values, but it is not solely western but does exist worldwide. Forget lawsuits and even money for one second and consider it in terms of due credit. Maybe I am too old fashioned (or biased because I have had a punk plagiarize my work in the past) but I do not see the importance of making a buck higher than the importance of maintaining integrity. When I say integrity, I refer to the Webster definition of: "firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values". I agree with you that morality does change, but the past few thousand years of civilization, we, as society, have maintained that stealing is wrong (with some exceptions, but finding universal traits in society other than the incest clause is difficult). We could debate the definition as well as the political and social ramifications of stealing in the business world for some time; however that is a different thread to be discussed at a different time. I have learned over my life that respect is something money cannot buy, especially in the field of academia where one’s worth is proven by their intelligence through words (something often illegally copied). By cloning the information of the innovators of the design without giving due credit, respect can be lost for an entire group/company/social strata, etc. Benchmade right now is not looking very respectable (although many pieces of this puzzle are undoubtedly missing), despite the fact that they build an excellent product and have had many major innovations over a series of years. What impact can this have? Besides making those representing Benchmade look poorly, it can also decrease sales, although, the decision to boycott a product or not will rest on a personal judgment of consumers. My point is that intellectual property is in a massive game of jeopardy and I feel action should come from Benchmade (not lawyers) to do right. Thanks.
 
It sure reminds me of a prototype I sent Sal a while back. Looks a lot like it. Yep. There must be a spy inside that leaked it out I guess. They made the hump smaller and the blade more pointed thats all :D Does that sound rediculous? In this thread I can't see how.

HardHeart. I'm done with you for the evening on those issues and its derailing the topic.

As for thumb studs. I have to say I like both. There is nothing to lose with a hole thats one plus going for it. I've had several forum members contact me over the time I've been a member here about replacing lost studs for them on their knives but I've had several knives with opening slots or oval shaped opening holes come in asking me to stick a stud on the blade to help catch it to open it properly too. I've also had several knives in for other work with side notes asking if I could reduce the length of the thumb stud on the knife because it was the opinion of the owner that it stuck out too far.

The David Boye folder was one l modified for myself. I kept missing the hole to open the blade and it didn't work well with gloves on at all. In that case I felt the thumb stud worked better with gloves so long as I made sure it was long enough to give me something to catch. With the round hole I've never had any trouble opening a blade even with a thick glove on when the opening hole was a bigger diameter one. The 8mm ones are a bit small for me but the 12 and 14mm is quite easy to access. I prefer the larger holes. I have not had any issues with the Byrd folders I've had either.

I do tend to prefer the knives with very little hump on the blade over those with a profound one but really it is easy to justify the humb when you put some traction grooves in it and find out how well you can grip the thing for some serious work so I've learned to live with it.

STR
 
Well, for the purposes of further discussion, let's distinguish between legal and moral correctness, which are essentially unrelated.
 
But I guess if you just want to put a Spyder on your blade you can just slap one of those on there too with the hole and maybe even stick a Butterfly right behind it eating the bug just to get your point across real good. I mean why not go all the way right?

STR

Vex II ? .
 
a hole in the blade? So Kershaw, Howard Viele, Dan Koster with his WSK and pig hunting knife, and every other hole violate the trademark?

hardheart

You can't have missed the fact that it is the shape of the hole that is trademarked, not the fact that there is a hole in the blade. If the hole is round, but used inder licence, it does not violate the trademark. If it is round and not used under licence it does. Are you trying to contribute to the discussion or just argue irrationally :thumbdn:
 
Every one of those I mentioned has a round hole in a blade, so I'm not sure what your point is.
 
Patents do expire. Does anyone have a patent number on spyderco's design? I'll research it from work(law firm)...because it beats working...
 
i did it for the skirmish...
funny.jpg


may as well try to shine this turd up a bit as well...
starmate2.jpg

seriously benchmade, just rename the damn thing the starmate version 2 and be done with it.
 
As I understand it, Spyderco's patent was for a depression in the blade of a folding knife that allowed the thumb to open the blade. The patent neither specified or precluded the depression going all the way through, nor did it limit the depression to one specific shape. Spyderco's trademark, on the other hand, is for a single specific implementation of a depression as an opening device covered by that patent, the round hole opening device. Except for a single model they have used the round hole opening device, to the exclusion of all other implementations of the patent since they began producing knives. That sole exception was the C27 Jess Horn. It used a pair of trapezoidal depressions in the blade that fit the specification of the patent just as well as the round hole opener does.

Aside from the C27 Jess Horn, the round hole opening device has been used as the opening device on every FOLDING knife that has been marketed under the Spyderco label from their first, the C01 Worker to their latest the C113 Caly 3. The sole exception was the C27 Jess Horn. Since fixed blade knives would not benefit from a round hole opener, or any other opener for that matter, the round hole opener has never been used by Spyderco on them. The presence of holes drilled for purely cosmetic reasons on the SPOT and SWICK do not alter that.

A manufacturer's use of a trademark on one distinct group of products (in this instance folding knives) and their non-use of it on other distinct product groups (fixed blade knives, kitchen sharps) does not impact the legitimacy of the trademark.

Companies are allowed to have more than one trademark, so the existence of other Spyderco trademarks, such as the "bug", does not does not impact the legitimacy of the round hole opener as a trademark.

"Functional" features CAN be given trademark protection, as long as the functionality does not confer a functional advantage. As an example, paint on a vehicle serves a functional purpose, but John Deere has a trademark on a specific color of green.

Manufacturers, including Benchmade, who have used oval and other shaped holes as opening devices have asserted, and continue to assert, in their advertising that the shape of their hole makes it superior to the round hole as an opening device. By that assertion, they have eliminated the argument that the round hole has a functional advantage over other shaped holes when used as an opening device. The fact that ANY hole opener of reasonable size, regardless of shape, has a functional advantage over thumb studs, disks, nail nicks, etc. is beside the point.

The fact that other manufacturers and some custom makers use one or more non-functional round holes as their trademark has no bearing. Nor does the presence of round holes in wheels, donuts, and bowling balls. The trademark in question covers a round hole used as an opening device on a folding knife.

The fact that Spyderco has licensed their trademark round hole to some custom makers and one other manufacturer for use, with attribution, on products that do not directly compete with Spyderco's own wares due to their price-points does not diminish it's validity as a trademark. It is no different than when Jeep and other automobile manufacturers license the use of their marques to companies that make battery powered ride on cars for kids.

Theft is theft, whether the item stolen is tangible or intellectual property. All the rationalization in the world will not change that.

And, for the sake of anyone still unaware of it, I am not now nor have I ever been an employee of, or spokesperson for, Spyderco. My opinions, as expressed here and elsewhere, are mine, and mine alone. The strength of my feelings regarding this matter are a combination of two things. The first is my deep respect for the integerity of Spyderco, Sal Glesser, and everyone else in the Spyderco organization I have had the pleasure of dealing with. The second is, perhaps more self-serving. I make my living, in effect, by selling the fruits of my imagination to my employer, so I take IP theft of any kind, from anybody, very seriously.
 
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