"Best in Show": knife judging

[2knife]

Interested to know the process- what criteria is used by judges in selecting winning knives at major and/or regional knife shows? (this is somewhat of a mystery to the average knife show attendee, and/or customer)

How are judges selected, and how many judges usually serve- are the same judges used in every category? Is there any thought to a knife's functional or performance attributes or is it strictly a beauty pageant? (use Blade Show as example, if someone can offer comment)
Thanks in advance,
David

 

[Kevin Jones]

Yes David, it's a beauty contest. In fact, I'm looking for the prettiest knife that won't cut as much as a shoe string to get my vote. Knowing your preferences for functionality over aesthetics, that's what you are fishing for, right?

But seriously, judges don't have a lot of time as usually you're not just judging best of show but dozens of knives for a lot of different categories (best of show, best bowie, best hunter, best damascus etc-etc).

I'm looking for the best knife for the specific category, so "best of show" is the best knife presented "period".
First, a knife has to pass a quick general inspection where I'm looking good basic design, overall appeal, proportions, overall and blade profiles, material quality, grinds, damascus execution (if applicable) and basic ergonomics. If it's not a good basic design meeting my criteria above I'm not going to waste anymore time on it.
If it passes, then I'm critiquing balance/weight/handle comfort/blade geometry/sharpness and finally REALLY getting into all aspects of fit/finish and execution. I'm not going the be chopping the table legs up but both beauty and functionality are important to me.

It's a very tough job as you have limited time and it very serious business. Knifemakers have put a lot of time and effort in the knives.

The number of judges vary by show. I have been the only judge and have been on 3 judge panels. Some shows such as Blade use the same judges or most of the same judges from year to year and others change judges every year.
That's it from my perspective.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I would also point out that the Arkansas Show has a technical judge who is usually a very experienced maker and doesn't have a vote, but is there to advise on technical aspects of the knives if needed. A good thing IMO, as he can help keep things moving along.

I think it's an art to being a good knife judge. You have to be able to somewhat scan a knife quickly while accurately picking up on all the criteria I mentioned above.

Perhaps Les will chime in as he has a lot of experience in this area. I've only judged a few shows.

 

[2knife]

Thanks Kevin,
i am imagining this is done like a "home inspection"- going through a list, assigning points and deductions? What qualifies a knife judge, like having a good "wine nose" or being successful, or operating in the elite of the business (purveyors) ?
David

 

[2knife]

Two faults, or potential faults i see - on a technical aspect- there may be an inherit advantage towards knives that demostrate more symmetry of design. A knife with a flat grind may stack an advantage over one with a convex, more complex grind, simply due to exacting form. Squared sharp angles may be seen as benefits, not detractions.. Ofcourse i may be way off base, just my impressions on "knives" as a whole- custom knives are often constructed towards a "machinists eye" for details these days. It is the absolute "standard" of quality, if my impressions are correct.

The "window dressing" not only takes the cake, it becomes the cake!

But this is only my view- looking out, it may be uninformed!
David

 

[2knife]

True or false, one most important element of making a knife is in the heat treatment? How do you judge this? If you dont, why not? - "Best" by some definitions, actually means "better" by some measureable way.

This is why i used the term "beauty pageant". As i said, i may be uninformed...

 

[tvandeventer]

I think it can be summed up in the title, "Best in Show." Not "Best in Function." With the naked eye, here is no way to tell what's going on inside the steel, or even inside the handle. All you can go by is outward design, fit & finish, and ergonomics.

One factor that does come into play is name recognition. The most honest judge is going to be influenced ever-so-slightly by a knife made by a big-name, popular maker. It's up to him to overcome this impulse. Good judges have no problem with this. Some shows cover the makers' stamps with tape. I think that levels the field a little bit.

The "Best in Show" might be a Labrador Retriever. Can he hunt? Don't know. But he conforms to the standard and sure is pretty!

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS

 

[black mamba]

I would certainly think that any maker capable of winning a "Best in Show" award would know how to heat treat the steels he/she uses.
Mastering fundamentals usually comes way before artistry is achieved.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think it can be summed up in the title, "Best in Show." Not "Best in Function." With the naked eye, here is no way to tell what's going on inside the steel, or even inside the handle. All you can go by is outward design, fit & finish, and ergonomics.

One factor that does come into play is name recognition. The most honest judge is going to be influenced ever-so-slightly by a knife made by a big-name, popular maker. It's up to him to overcome this impulse. Good judges have no problem with this. Some shows cover the makers' stamps with tape. I think that levels the field a little bit.The "Best in Show" might be a Labrador Retriever. Can he hunt? Don't know. But he conforms to the standard and sure is pretty!

Cheers,

TV

Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS

Well said and I agree Terry.
Some shows do cover the maker's marks with tape, however most who are qualified to judge are likely to recognize who made the knives without seeing the marks.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thanks Kevin,
i am imagining this is done like a "home inspection"- going through a list, assigning points and deductions? What qualifies a knife judge, like having a good "wine nose" or being successful, or operating in the elite of the business (purveyors) ?
David

Perhaps if one was only judging a single knife award like "best of show" among a dozen entries you would have time to use a list and assign +/- system to score, however there's usually 6-8 (or more) knives being judged for 9-10 different awards so there's no time for that.

The little bit of judging I have done has helped me in that I use to take quite a bit of time to fully inspect a knife using a mental list and checking each aspect one at a time. Now I'm more scanning a knife checking multiple aspects at once. For example if I'm holding the knife up to light checking for gaps in handle/spacer/ferrule/guard I'm also checking things like the plunge lines for uniformity. The first glance at a handle will often eliminate a knife. If the handle shape/design is poor there's no reason to spend anymore time on that piece.

IMO, what qualifies you as a good judge is having inspected hundreds if not thousands of all types/styles of good, bad and so-so custom knives and being able to judge each knife subjectively without prejudice and without regard to personal taste.

 

[RogerP]

True or false, one most important element of making a knife is in the heat treatment? How do you judge this? If you dont, why not?

David - enlighten me please - how would you propose heat treatment be judged at a knife show?

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi David:

How are judges selected, and how many judges usually serve- are the same judges used in every category? Is there any thought to a knife's functional or performance attributes or is it strictly a beauty pageant? (use Blade Show as example, if someone can offer comment)
Thanks in advance,

Generally judges are picked from those who are at the show. The main criteria seems to be a good overall knowledge of custom knives. I have judged with other dealers, writers, collectors and editors.

Yes, the same judges are used for each category.

Yes, there is a lot of thought given to function with regards to the category the knife is in.

By far the biggest offender are those makers who put there 10 -12" 3 pound bowie,,,,into the hunter category.

You can't believe how many makers have difficulty putting their knife in the right category.

Beauty pageant? Nothing could be further from the truth. Fit and finish are the top of the list. Doesn't matter how beautiful the knife is. Grinds are off...OUT. Guard doesn't fit...OUT. Blade play on a folder...OUT. More times than not the winner of the award is the knife with the fewest mistakes....they all have mistakes.

A knife with a flat grind may stack an advantage over one with a convex, more complex grind, simply due to exacting form. Squared sharp angles may be seen as benefits, not detractions

Again, fit and finish. I don't give or take away points for forged or stock removal. Or flat grinds or convex grinds. Each is judged on its own merit.

I also don't give points for engraving, jewels, gold inlay or scrimshaw. It was pointed out to me over 2 decades ago while I was judging at a show. That the scrim on a particular knife was covering up a hairline crack in the Ivory.

True or false, one most important element of making a knife is in the heat treatment?

Most judges will give the maker the benefit of the doubt...that they actually know how to heat treat their blades. For myself I will check and see if a knife has an edge on it. I have seen knives submitted without being sharpened....maybe they didn't do their heat treat right. Regardless of the reason....OUT.

Best of Show (at least at the Blade Show) is selected from among the best of each category. They compete against each other. The judges will then again compare the merits of the knives against the others. This may be the most difficult aspect of the judging.

Honestly, when you are judging a category of knives you would be amazed at how quickly 3 or 4 knives will separate themselves from the others.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Terry,

One factor that does come into play is name recognition. The most honest judge is going to be influenced ever-so-slightly by a knife made by a big-name, popular maker. It's up to him to overcome this impulse. Good judges have no problem with this. Some shows cover the makers' stamps with tape. I think that levels the field a little bit.

As you can imagine more times than not when I am judging there are not only makers I represent as a dealer...but they are friends of mine as well.

For me, I am probably harder on the guys I represent than the others in the competition. There might have been a time that a makers name would have influenced me ever so slightly. I was cured of that after judging for a few years. I became so disappointed in seeing the "Big Name Makers" work with so many mistakes. They showed me that they were now resting on their laurels and felt that they could submit anything and win.

A funny story with regards to this. I was judging at the Las Vegas Classic knife show, probably 15 years ago. Harvey Dean had delivered 3 Bowies to me at that show. Later on he submitted on of his Bowies in the Best Bowie competition and he won.

Later that day he pulled me aside as he felt there may be some repercussions as he delivered 3 Bowies to one of the judges. I tried to stop him a couple of times and he just kept talking.

Finally, I said "Harvey, it is ok....I voted for Roger Green! We both had a good laugh. But his point was well taken.

A friend of mine submitted a knife, beautiful dagger. The other two judges voted for this knife...until I pointed out that the edges were not symmetrical. On one side the grind was probably off a 1/16th of an inch. Someone else won the best art knife award.

I was talking to him after they announced the winners. He knew I was a judge and asked me why the other maker won the award. I explained to him what happened. Needless to say he was pissed at me.

I explained to him that a world class maker such as he is should have never let that knife out of his shop...let alone entered into a competition. I explained to him about how I was so disappointed in earlier competitions I judged that the big name makers were submitting knives with so many mistakes.

That I represented him and I was not going to work with a maker who knowingly let work like that leave their shop....and that thought it was good enough to enter into competitions. As that is the beginning of the end.

He removed the knife off of his table. Took it home. I saw him a couple weeks later...the blade was perfect. He entered it in the best art knife competition and he won.

No, I was not a judge.

Im happy to say he is still a world class maker, he is still winning awards (two at a recent show) and he is still my friend.

I can only speak for myself. Tape over the name is not necessary...the knife (regardless of the name on the blade) speaks for itself.

 

[butcher_block]

great thread and good to see how the contest works from ppl that are not worried about stepping on toes

it makes us all better ppl and the ones that cant take it need to buck up or go home

thank you and please keep the great info coming

 

[TennKnifeman]

I've picked the judges, I've judged myself. As Les said, the first criteria is the judge has to be there--thus the picking the judges is done at the show itself. The criteria? Simple. I pick the three people who I feel have the most overall ability to tell a great knife from a good knife.

In other words that means they've paid dues. Often a dealer over a maker or a collector, simply because they have handled a wider variety of knives, and more knives, and that gives them more qualifications to judge one knife over a great many others.

Knife writers tend to have a broader knowledge, so they get asked too. And part of the picking is finding a judge who will devote the time to it, and take the selection seriously. Most do.

The process is usually a table or designated area is devoted to the available categories. When the makers bring their knives to the room they simply lay their knife on the table for the category which they wish to enter. Most of the time Best of Show has no table--it is selected among all the other.

And with everyone's knives spread out the initial selection goes quick--as in side by side comparisons the great ones jump out at you. The others all look plain. Sometimes the judges move the knives they like in that category to a different position, and usually each judge picks one knife he likes, and if there are three different knives, they the pros and cons of each knife are openly discussed.

The one thing that I cannot overstate is that a maker can have the fit, finish, grind, etc. down pat, and still blow it. The reason is when these knives are narrowed down the knives are picked up and handled. More than a few knives have been equal in all other aspects but the balance was delicate--and swift. And there is no comparison with that.

One of my biggest concerns with everyone praising the internet as the best place to knives is that those knives are never handled for balance prior to purchase. Even among great makers there are knives that have a better balance and feel than others.

I learned to appreciate balance after handling a lot of antique Bowies when photographing and writing the Antique Bowie Knife Book. The balance was the magic, even in a rusted, oak handled Confederate D-Guard, the balance was the thing. The cold hard truth is when a man carried an undependable muzzleloader prone to misfire, he wanted a back-up that would never misfire. And you can darn well bet if his life was going to depend on that knife it would be quick in the hand.

And as much as I hate to say it there are only a handful of modern knifemakers have a clue about what I've just described. Jerry Fisk is one, Harvey Dean another. Moran knew it well.

Once while judging with Ken Warner, there was one knife balanced as good as anything I had ever held. I handed it to Warner, and he didn't say anything, he just moved it back and forth, his eyes half closed, and a smile slowly crossing his face.

He opened his eyes and looked down at the knife. "Wouldn't you be a bad SOB in the dark with this?" was his only comment.

That knife won Best of Show at a Blade Show.

 

[RogerP]

One of my biggest concerns with everyone praising the internet as the best place to knives is that those knives are never handled for balance prior to purchase. Even among great makers there are knives that have a better balance and feel than others.

I guess you must have a similarly big concern over custom orders. After all, the buyer doesn't get to handle the knife until it's paid for and delivered. And even among great makers, some knives have better balance and feel than others.

If I only bought knives from shows where I attended and handled each one before I made the purchase, I wouldn't have that many knives. Not sure that would be good for me or good for the industry as a if such purchases were the rule, rather than the exception.

Precious few dealers would be in business - that's for sure.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Perhaps show promoters should do away with judging knives at the shows and just post the entries up on the forums and we could pick the winners via poll from the photos.

Heck, who needs to inspect a knife when you can just look at a photo.

 

[RogerP]

Perhaps show promoters should do away with judging knives at the shows and just post the entries up on the forums and we could pick the winners via poll from the photos.

Heck, who needs to inspect a knife when you can just look at a photo.

An odd suggestion coming from you, Kevin. You seem to be confusing the issues of show judging and purchasing.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

An odd suggestion coming from you, Kevin. You seem to be confusing the issues of show judging and purchasing.

Roger

Confused? If you read the opening post you will notice this thread is about show judging not purchasing.

What's odd is your propensity to turn productive threads into augments.

 

[RogerP]

Confused? If you read the opening post you will notice this thread is about show judging not purchasing.

What's odd is your propensity to turn productive threads into augments.

Oh do please descend from your high horse. Bruce was the one who introduced the issue of purchasing based on pictures alone, to which I responded. Then came your dose of sarcasm about judging show entries based on photos alone.

There's nothing odd at all about your propensity to label an opposing view as "unproductive".

Roger