"Best in Show": knife judging

[Kevin Jones]

David - enlighten me please - how would you propose heat treatment be judged at a knife show?
Roger

I guess you must have a similarly big concern over custom orders. After all, the buyer doesn't get to handle the knife until it's paid for and delivered. And even among great makers, some knives have better balance and feel than others.
If I only bought knives from shows where I attended and handled each one before I made the purchase, I wouldn't have that many knives. Not sure that would be good for me or good for the industry as a if such purchases were the rule, rather than the exception.
Precious few dealers would be in business - that's for sure.
Roger

An odd suggestion coming from you, Kevin. You seem to be confusing the issues of show judging and purchasing.
Roger

Oh do please descend from your high horse. Bruce was the one who introduced the issue of purchasing based on pictures alone, to which I responded. Then came your dose of sarcasm about judging show entries based on photos alone.
There's nothing odd at all about your propensity to label an opposing view as "unproductive".
Roger

Roger, you have made 4 posts in this thread directed at 3 different individuals with all 4 trying to initiate an argument.
How is that productive?
You certainly know your way around knife shows and the judging process, why not contribute something positive?

 

[RogerP]

Roger, you have made 4 posts in this thread directed at 3 different individuals with all 4 trying to initiate an argument.
How is that productive?
You certainly know your way around knife shows and the judging process, why not contribute something positive?

Kevin,

If you consider my posts argumentative, that's fine. But it doesn't contribute to the discussion for you to (repeatedly) make that observation, any more than it would be for me to point out the condescending nature of your posts directed towards me.

David implied that heat treatment was important and asked if it was considered in judging. I asked how he would suggest that aspect be judged in a show context.

Bruce mentioned his "big concern" with knives being purchased on line where the buyer couldn't first determine feel. I inquired as to how that was different from placing a custom order where the buyer similarly doesn't get to determine feel.

You call that "being argumentative". I call that engaging in a discussion by presenting an opposing view.

But whatever one's view might be Kevin, tell me this - does a forensic review of my posts contribute to the topic of discusion - or serve any purpose at all? I mean, beyond your innate and persistent desire to paint me in a negative light? Perhaps if you wish to maintain a productive discourse, you will choose, going forward, to refrain from adopting the role of my personal thread nanny. Just a thought.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,
But whatever one's view might be Kevin, tell me this - does a forensic review of my posts contribute to the topic of discusion - or serve any purpose at all? I mean, beyond your innate and persistent desire to paint me in a negative light? Perhaps if you wish to maintain a productive discourse, you will choose, going forward, to refrain from adopting the role of my personal thread nanny. Just a thought.

Roger

WoW, that's the best example of "the pot calling the kettle black" I have ever heard in my life.

I have a thought as well!
Let's do ourselves and everyone else in forumland a favor. Let's both agree to not responding to one another's threads/posts on this and any other forum. And not mention and/or make reference to any of one another's comments/opinions on this or any other forum, thread and/or post. An example of the latter would be your tendency to sarcastically quote something I say in one thread "out of context" in another thread.

I think this would eliminate (what seems like) our continuous "back & forth" which I'm sure so many are tired of.

 

[RogerP]

You mean how about I agree to never contradict you and your various pronouncements on the custom knife world as you see it? I can see where you would find that most agreeable.

But it's not going to happen.

As I have tried to explain to you in the past, while we see some things the same way, we see many things differently. I won't bother to list them - I don't have all day.

But when I see something that I disagree with - from you or someone else - I will express a contrary view. That is what a discussion forum - well, this one anyway - is all about.

You are free as always to disagree with whatever I am saying - I have never had an issue with that - condradict my position on the merits to your heart's content. That's what open discussion is. It's when you presume to scold me for what you perceive to be misconduct on my part that I take exception. I'm not a child and you're not my grade three teacher, so give THAT whole deal a permanent rest, if you please. It certainly would be the surest way to end exhanges such as these. Had you not departed from the topic at hand to take me to task for what you see are my being excessivley argumentative, this particular exchange would have been avoided.

This forum has moderators and they do a pretty good job. Leave them to it.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Then so be it.

Just thought there would be benefit to the community in your leaving your inexhaustible tenancy to argue (which your 4 initial posts demostrate) to your courtroom.

 

[RogerP]

Then so be it.

Just thought there would be benefit to the community in your leaving your inexhaustible tenancy to argue (which your 4 initial posts demostrate) to your courtroom.

Doesn't take long for the lawyer cracks to start with you, does it.

This is your idea of moving toward constructive discourse?

Most disappointing, but not in the least unexpected.

You thought it would benefit the community if I didn't participate? Yeah, I got that message - over and over and over again. It's what you're saying, but not saying, and it's really what lies at the heart of this campaign of yours. But for better or worse, that's not your call. Not here, anyway.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Doesn't take long for the lawyer cracks to start with you, does it.

This is your idea of moving toward constructive discourse?

Most disappointing, but not in the least unexpected.

Roger

No Roger, not a lawyer crack at all and I meant no disrespect. In fact, my daughter is in her second year of law school and works for a large law firm in Washington DC.

However, lawyers argue points and cases. Unfortunately, I never win an argument with her either.

 

[Les Robertson]

So I guess we are done talking about Best of Show judging?

 

[Kevin Jones]

So I guess we are done talking about Best of Show judging?

I hope not.
I've aways been interested in the different processes from show to show. What parameters different judges use, or what weights they put on different aspects of the knife in determining the "best".

One thing I have found interesting is that the maker selecting which category he chooses to enter a particular knife can be extremely important.

One example of several I could share; a maker entered a beautiful damascus bowie in the "best damascus" category, in which he had very strong competition and though his damascus was exceptional it wasn't the best, thus he didn't win. However, if he would have entered the same bowie in the "best bowie" category he would have most definitely won that category.

So there's a degree of luck involved as the shows I have judged the makers weren't aware (or won't supposed to be aware) of knives they would be completing against in each category.

 

[RogerP]

So I guess we are done talking about Best of Show judging?

Roger

 

[misterjuiceman]

So I guess we are done talking about Best of Show judging?

I've always been interested in seeing a list of winners of these types of contests. does anyone have archives of Blade show winnners and possibly other shows as well?

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

One example of several I could share; a maker entered a beautiful damascus bowie in the "best damascus" category, in which he had very strong competition and though his damascus was exceptional it wasn't the best, thus he didn't win. However, if he would have entered the same bowie in the "best bowie" category he would have most definitely won.

My experience is that the maker will enter knives in more than one category.

I don't think it is "luck". The maker entered (like every other maker does) into a category thinking they are competitive. In fact most aren't.

I just judged at the SOS Show and a maker who is a frequent contributor here entered a knife that had rust forming on silver solder.

I suspect he like a lot of makers, just grabbed a knife off the table and entered it.

I say that because I can't imagine a maker that really takes pride in their work would enter a knife with rust on it.

NOTE: Even if his solder joint was perfect....he would have lost. The knife had so many flaws I can't believe it got out of his shop...was entered into a judging competition...worse yet...the knife was on his table for sale.

Ladies and Gentlemen...every time you look at a knife...think of yourself as a judge. Look for the flaws. Ask questions of the makers. The more you know the better knife you will get for your money.

 

[Jon Brand]

Not to complicate all this, but one time I was talking to a well respected maker. I said, why not enter this amazing knife into the Blade show drawings? He said it was too political and he won't win because of it, so it was not worth entering knives into the Bladeshow system.

This really upset me as he makes some of the nicest pieces I have ever seen.

I have often wondered what the actually deal is with that. It makes me think the judges should be rotated.

 

[RogerP]

My experience is that the maker will enter knives in more than one category.

Is there any restriction on the number of categories a knife can be entered in at Blade? I mean, could one knife be submitted in 4 or 5 categories (assuming it remotely fit)?

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi MJ,

I think the online Blade Forum would have that information. I suspect the same would be true for the KI SOS Show.

You would probably have to check each club or organizations website to find out the winners.

I find it interesting to track the makers who win awards at local or regional shows. To see how they do if they enter a knife into the competition at a show like the Blade Show.

If you are putting your knife in for judging at that show....you better bring your "A" game.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Jonathan,

Not to complicate all this, but one time I was talking to a well respected maker. I said, why not enter this amazing knife into the Blade show drawings? He said it was too political and he won't win because of it, so it was not worth entering knives into the Bladeshow system.

I can only respond with....he is full of it.

He entered and lost because his knife was not the best in the category. Pure and simple.

When makers don't win (and somehow think they should) it is always someone else's fault.

Ok, here you go let him know it is time to put up or shut up. Tell him to enter a knife next year at the Blade Show. If he doesn't win...I will personally point out the flaws/mistakes that cost him the win. Bad grinds, bad fits and finishes are not political...they are momentary lapses of concentration...that the maker knows are on the knife. But for any of number of reasons do not fix the mistake(s).

Now, will he enter...no he won't. Why won't he enter...because he knows deep down that it is not politics that are keeping his knives from winning awards at the Blade Show.

Remember my previous post about how disappointed I was in the "name" makers work.

More than likely with this maker he is sitting on a plateau. His work is not improving. He sees his competitors coming at him. But chooses to stay on that plateau.

As it is easier to blame others for their lack of success than it is to get off their ass and put in the time to improve you work.

BTW, I have been judging at shows for 22 years (at the Blade Show for 18). Do you know how many makers have approached me after the judging to ask me why the didn't win?

Go ahead....Guess.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Roger,

Is there any restriction on the number of categories a knife can be entered in at Blade? I mean, could one knife be submitted in 4 or 5 categories (assuming it remotely fit)?

No.

We all had a good laugh at the show this year as one maker entered the same knife in 5 categories (fixed blade).

It is a common occurrence for a maker to enter more than one knife in different categories. Not just at Blade, but a lot of other shows.

 

[Kohai999]

Not to complicate all this, but one time I was talking to a well respected maker. I said, why not enter this amazing knife into the Blade show drawings? He said it was too political and he won't win because of it, so it was not worth entering knives into the Bladeshow system.
.

I can tell you from a VAST knowledge of the judges at Blade that this is hogwash. I had two makers in The Pit try to tell me the same thing using R.J. Martin's winning 4 Best Tactical awards and Les being one of R.J. dealers as an example, and I asked them both if they had seen R.J.'s award winning knife this year, and THEY HAD NOT. The knife, and the maker won the award....because it was THE BEST.

I hate when otherwise solid makers and good men turn into crybabies

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Jon Brand]

Well he certainly wasn't a cry baby about it. I just brought it up and he said he just didn't want to bother. But I rest my case and of course we will see what the future holds.

 

[brownshoe]

Winning does not mean a maker has the best knife in a category. It means the knife best fits what the judges were looking for. Given the ad hoc nature of picking judges (whoever shows up, is willing to spend the time, and the promoter thinks is qualified) certainly means that the criteria of "best" is accidental and fully subjective. There does not even seem to be an attempt to have the judging panel represent makers, collectors and dealers in an equitable manner. If it is correct that panels are packed with dealers, this will bias the judging to what is readily marketable...this leaves art at the road side.

A knife that wins does not mean it is even a functional knife. How many hunters have won best in show but are made of materials or have finishes that will not survive in the field?

It's a beauty contest...but that's OK, knives are sexy Just because she's pretty doesn't mean she's a good.......