"Best in Show": knife judging

[Ed Fowler]

Well said Brownshoe, I salute you!!!

 

[2knife]

Winning does not mean a maker has the best knife in a category. It means the knife best fits what the judges were looking for. Given the ad hoc nature of picking judges (whoever shows up, is willing to spend the time, and the promoter thinks is qualified) certainly means that the criteria of "best" is accidental and fully subjective. There does not even seem to be an attempt to have the judging panel represent makers, collectors and dealers in an equitable manner. If it is correct that panels are packed with dealers, this will bias the judging to what is readily marketable...this leaves art at the road side.

A knife that wins does not mean it is even a functional knife. How many hunters have won best in show but are made of materials or have finishes that will not survive in the field?

It's a beauty contest...but that's OK, knives are sexy Just because she's pretty doesn't mean she's a good.......

this is a valid critique. How many wine judges would not even sample the wine?, yet knives dont cut anything in a contest for "Best" of anything. So, i would submit the winning knives cut something- if only for the pure ceremony of it alone.

 

[Les Robertson]

Brownshoe:

Winning does not mean a maker has the best knife in a category. It means the knife best fits what the judges were looking for. Given the ad hoc nature of picking judges (whoever shows up, is willing to spend the time, and the promoter thinks is qualified) certainly means that the criteria of "best" is accidental and fully subjective. There does not even seem to be an attempt to have the judging panel represent makers, collectors and dealers in an equitable manner. If it is correct that panels are packed with dealers, this will bias the judging to what is readily marketable...this leaves art at the road side.

A knife that wins does not mean it is even a functional knife. How many hunters have won best in show but are made of materials or have finishes that will not survive in the field?

It's a beauty contest...but that's OK, knives are sexy Just because she's pretty doesn't mean she's a good.......
Reply With Quote

I don't remember seeing you during the judging at the Blade show. Consequently, when it comes (specifically to that show) you have no idea what you are talking about.

You are of course entitled to your very very very uneducated opinion.

I do agree with your statement about the pool of judges to pick from. Fortunately at the Blade Show the pool is huge.

Given you have such an extensive opinion. For the sake of those who are not familiar with your back ground. Please list all the shows you have been a judge at.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,
My experience is that the maker will enter knives in more than one category.

I don't think it is "luck". The maker entered (like every other maker does) into a category thinking they are competitive. In fact most aren't.

I guest it depends on the rules of the show. The shows I have judged only allowed a particular knife to be entered in one category.

What I meant by "luck" is that it's a roll of the dice as to what competition the maker and his knife is going to be up against in a given category as he doesn't know what the other entries are in advance. In any given category a maker could be up against 6-8 outstanding knives or perhaps just 2 so-so knives.

 

[Les Robertson]

David,

this is a valid critique. How many wine judges would not even sample the wine?, yet knives don't cut anything in a contest for "Best" of anything. So, i would submit the winning knives cut something- if only for the pure ceremony of it alone.

What would you suggest they cut? Wood, leather, flesh, etc. Now remember there will be a group (that no matter what you cut) that will bitch and moan that that material in not indicative of what a knife should really cut.

Can a presentation folder cut through a 2 x 4 as quickly as a presentation folder? How about a hunter dressing out an animal as opposed to a sword. Which will do a better job?

Now you have a sub group bitching and moaning that the contest is not fair as while both can cut flesh...the sword can remove much more at one time and as such has a technological (if not mechanical) advantage over the hunter.

How will the best tactical folder stack up in cutting water bottles as opposed to the best art knife. Does one have an inherit value over the other because of the weight?

How about edge geometry and blade design. Different knives have different edge geometries....you know...right tool for the right job.

This goes back to my question...what do you have the winner of each category cut? What if the number 2 knife in a category can out cut the winner of the category...but has a huge gap between the guard and blade?

How do you account for that? Are you going to start to use a point system that adds or subtracts points for each of the tests?

BTW, how much do you plan on paying the judges? Because what you want to do...if you do it fairly and in each category will take several hours. This subsequently will make the pool of judges even smaller.....as those who have tables at the show will not want to be away from their tables.

Now you have reduced the pool of qualified candidates. How will the lack of knowledge of the less qualified judges affect their ability to determine who should win the best of any category?

You now have less qualified judges. They will need you to spell out in specific detail exactly what to look for in each of the 16 categories of knives. Who determines that...who writes that up...are pictures needed?

Will their lack of knowledge be accepted by those who did not win?

Will they claim that a diluted pool of judges has given way to bias, politics, etc.

Will the makers enter the next year in the competition?

How will you make all of the fair and equitable? How will you compensate the winners for using their knives to cut something? Can you imagine Buster Warenski allowing you to use the King Tut Dagger to "cut something"?

What is the Ceremonial cutting? You are going to cut a lesser material? Perhaps something that will not leave a mark on the blade?

Then you will have another sub group pissing and moaning that the ceremonial cutting test is in fact no cutting test at all. That you and your judges are hypocrites as you claim you want proof of proper heat treating...but doing a cutting test.

Then you do nothing but a ceremonial cut!

By the way if you want to know which knife cuts the best. At the Blade Show check out the World Cutting Championships! Lots of ugly knives....but man can they cut and chop!

Maybe you could talk the winner of the Best of Show at Blade to use their knife and put it through its paces in the competition?

But what if it didn't cut best? Does that mean it really isn't the best of show? What if the cutting champion turned in his knife for judging and it didn't win best of show. Does that mean his World Championship is some how diluted?

Lots to consider.

Probably best if you and Brownshoe put on a show. Then you can set up the criteria however you like.

Just remember, lots to consider.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

I guest it depends on the rules of the show. The shows I have judged only allowed a particular knife to be entered in one category.

Exactly right. You enter a hunter into the hunter category. You enter a tactical folder into the tactical folder category. If the maker has built a hunter and a tactical folder. They can enter each of those into the competition in the appropriate category.

What I meant by "luck" is that it's a roll of the dice as to what competition the maker and his knife is going to be up against in a given category as he doesn't know what the other entries are in advance. In any given category a maker could be up against 6-8 outstanding knives or perhaps just 2 so-so knives.

Ok Kevin, I agree with that. I have judged at shows where there was only one knife in the category...they win by default.

 

[Les Robertson]

Ed,

Well said Brownshoe, I salute you!!!

Before you go saluting anyone....we should wait to read about Brownshoes extensive knowledge when it comes to judging at shows.

I'm sure he has been judging for years in multiple countries.

Then again, he could just be talking out of his "4th Point Of Contact".

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,

Exactly right. You enter a hunter into the hunter category. You enter a tactical folder into the tactical folder category. If the maker has built a hunter and a tactical folder. They can enter each of those into the competition in the appropriate category.

^Obviously Les.
I'm referring to knives that would qualify to be entered into multiple categories. For example:

Any damascus knife (whether it be a hunter, bowie, folder etc.) could be entered into the "best damascus" category.

A antique style bowie could be entered into "best antique bowie" or "best bowie" or probably even "best fighter".

A tactical knife could be entered into either "best tactical" or "best fighter"

Any knife could be entered in the "best art knife" category.

I won't even get into all the different categories that a giraffe bone handle knife could be entered.

 

[Les Robertson]

David, Ed and Brownshoe:

Here is a list of the 2010 Blade Show Best Handmade Knife award winners:

Best Fighter: Kunihiko Tamatsu

Best Sword: Vince Evans

Best Miniature: Yoshio Sakauchi

Best New Maker: Tad Lynch

Best Damascus: John White

Best Folder: R.J. Martin

Best Fixed Blade: Steven Rapp

Best Bowie: John Horrigan

Best Hunter: Mike Williams

Best Knife Collaboration: Tom Overeynder and Brian Hochstrat

Most Innovative Design: Brian Tighe with Glenn Klecker

Best Handle Design: Jody Muller

Best Art Knife: Shaun and Sharla Hansen

Best Of The Rest: Todd Begg

Best Of The Show: Shaun and Sharla Hansen


Ed, perhaps you can start with the ABS makers letting them now that their heat treatment of their blades are being called into question. Be sure to let them know you saluted Brownshoe...oh and don't forget to tell them about his extensive experience judging at shows. And that this is why you are having to check on their knife making ability.

BTW Ed, have you ever won an award at the Blade show? If so, what methods did you use that would prove to David that your knife was 1) worthy of winning that award. 2) The heat treat was done properly 3) That you cut something to prove your knife's worthiness of winning the award. After all lack of that proof would of course just render your award winning knife...nothing but a "Beauty Queen".


David and Brownshoe, go ahead and google the rest and let the makers know that you feel that their knives may or may not have been the best in the category.

That until they prove otherwise their heat treat is questionable and the cutting ability (as judged by you) is also suspect.

Further that their knife won the award merely because it was "good looking" and had no other merit.

David just for grins start with RJ Martin. After all he has won the tactical award 4 years in a row. He will be across from me at the Blade Show next year. So will pick a knife off of his table.

To test his heat treat and subsequent cutting ability I will hold your arm out and in front of you and RJ will cut a semi-circle on your forearm.

We will have the pressure bandages waiting and perhaps brownshoe can give you a ride to the hospital for the (Im just guessing here) 15 -25 stitches you will need.

On the plus side...your question about heat treating and cutting ability will be answered.

 

[Kohai999]

Probably best if you and Brownshoe put on a show. Then you can set up the criteria however you like.

Just remember, lots to consider.

Well said Les....and we KNOW your qualifications!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Les Robertson]

Hey Kevin,

I won't even get into all the different categories that a giraffe bone handle knife could be entered.

There were knives entered with Giraffe bone. Generally, it is not the handle material that makes or breaks the knife from being considered. Although absolutely "killer" handle material can help in the overall presentation of the knife....especially in the art or presentation knife categories.

 

[2knife]

Les,
i appreciate the complexity of what you are saying.. It is an unrealistic thing to imagine function might be accurately measured to the same degree as other more specific visual skills a knifemaker demonstrates. I only think there is one category which perhaps is ignored, and the titilating "Best" of this or that may not paint an entirely comprehensive picture.

What comes to mind is how past makers would stand up to the exacting details that indicate quality today- Ruana would be laughed out of the room. Scagel not get an honorable mention, yet these makers define the knife maker's art of old. Are Scagel's knives any less of a knife than the best Old presentation Bowies of Sheffield England? Certainly not..

I have no experience with judging, so i am talking "out of my hat". But here we are..

Knives should be about "cut" too. So far i havent heard that word mentioned as an indicator of anything..

As in everything, decide by quorum!
David

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi STeven,

Thank you.

Just to be clear....there are a lot of people out there who could qualify to be judges. You, Kevin, Roger and probably Bob Betzner to name a few. Oh and obviously Bruce Voyles.Those are just off the top of my head. Neil Ostroff who shows up here once in awhile obviously has been a judge at the Blade Show as well.

Personally the main reason I really like to judge at shows is getting to view side by side, (in some cases) hundreds of knives in multiple categories. Knives submitted by makers (who feel it is their best knife on their table).

Giving me a "snapshot" as to how all of these makers stack up against each other.

My favorite category...Best New Maker!

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi David,

Knives should be about "cut" too. So far i havent heard that word mentioned as an indicator of anything..

Did you miss this?

To test his heat treat and subsequent cutting ability I will hold your arm out and in front of you and RJ will cut a semi-circle on your forearm.

We will have the pressure bandages waiting and perhaps brownshoe can give you a ride to the hospital for the (Im just guessing here) 15 -25 stitches you will need.

On the plus side...your question about heat treating and cutting ability will be answered.

As with every competition there have to be rules that level the playing field for all the knives.

Obviously a sword (especially in the hands of Ni-Dan STeven) would have a huge advantage over a hunter with regards to cutting. As would a Bowie from an ABS Master Smith over the presentation folder.

You want to call it a beauty contest, so be it. The reality is, as you look of the list of winners from the 2010 Blade Show. You are looking at a list of very well known custom knife makers. Most have been doing this for a decade or more. At this point to suspect their heat treat is ridiculous. The cutting ability of each knife, while not tested by the judges. Im sure I would not want to drag any of those blades across my forearm.

I know those damn Martin's Tighe's, Rapp's, Williams and Lynch knives are sharp...I have the cuts to prove it.

 

[Kohai999]

Les,
i appreciate the complexity of what you are saying.. It is an unrealistic thing to imagine function might be accurately measured to the same degree as other more specific visual skills a knifemaker demonstrates. I only think there is one category which perhaps is ignored, and the titilating "Best" of this or that may not paint an entirely comprehensive picture.

I have no experience with judging, so i am talking "out of my hat". But here we are..

Knives should be about "cut" too. So far i havent heard that word mentioned as an indicator of anything..

As in everything, decide by quorum!
David

1. History is often the judge of "best". Scagel knives are highly desired and dearly priced....that is not subjective, it is fact.

2. The makers entering a contest of "best"(sure, we can use the quotations) who labor over a 2000 grit hand rubbed finish would most certainly balk at the majority of cutting media...take your argument to them, David, I would most certainly like to be within hearing distance.

3. "Best" anything is subjective. There are those comfortable with the criteria and those not. When Ed Fowler makes a knife that appeals aesthetically to the masses, it is often an accident, so he probably wouldn't win too many beauty contests. For those that purchase a knife meant for use, Ed's work could maybe be the most beautiful of all. Kumbaya!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[misterjuiceman]

Hi STeven,

Thank you.

Just to be clear....there are a lot of people out there who could qualify to be judges. You, Kevin, Roger and probably Bob Betzner to name a few. Oh and obviously Bruce Voyles.Those are just off the top of my head. Neil Ostroff who shows up here once in awhile obviously has been a judge at the Blade Show as well.

Personally the main reason I really like to judge at shows is getting to view side by side, (in some cases) hundreds of knives in multiple categories. Knives submitted by makers (who feel it is their best knife on their table).

Giving me a "snapshot" as to how all of these makers stack up against each other.

My favorite category...Best New Maker!

I had no idea there were that many knives submitted (I haven't been to any shows, so that's probably why).

I'm not sure if you're comfortable divulging this, but in the case of the best tactical folder category, what were some of the big name folders (big name with respect to this forum,I suppose I'm asking) that were up against RJ Martin's in one of the contests that you judged (he's won so many years, so I'm assuming you judged in one of contests in which he won). I'm just curious to see what the pool was like.

 

[JParanee]

I am kinda lost with this thread

Of all people I prize performance feel and quality over everything. But I see no place in a contest such as this for performance to be brought into question ... it is a beauty contest as it should be.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi MJ,

The three that may have been best know are

Gus Ceccini

Matt Cucchiara

Todd Begg (Todd won an award in another category).

I'm sure there were others and I am just drawing a blank.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hey STeven,

"Best" anything is subjective. There are those comfortable with the criteria and those not.

Exactly right. However, judging at shows you are generally given "criteria" to judge by.

I suspect this is why they have 3 judges at the Blade Show (I have judged with as many as 7).

When Ed Fowler makes a knife that appeals aesthetically to the masses, it is often an accident, so he probably wouldn't win too many beauty contests. For those that purchase a knife meant for use, Ed's work could maybe be the most beautiful of all. Kumbaya!

STeven, while I'm sure Ed appreciates your riding to his rescue....the questions were in fact asked of Ed.

I would like his answers.

 

[RogerP]

Well said Les, STeven - I salute you both!

Roger