BFC - the kinder, gentler, warm fuzzy, edged forums.

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Hmmm, eye opener indeed.
I can understand the need to derail trolls, but let's leave the bulk of their comments so that all may see the depth of their wisdom
Keeping my comments to myself, so I wont be told what a meanie pants I am....however, I will say, that post was....ummm...entertaining.

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Wow, who squatted in his Post Toasties? I understand about losers and trolls, but really! You post a picture with by far the longest, silliest Bowie knife in history and bill yourself as 'ROS,' and expect to NOT draw criticism(?) Well, attendance is NOT mandatory; I just shut my computer off (when I remember).--OKG
Thank goodness there are enough decent people at BFC.A troll now and then is good for laughs!

"Just me and my multi-tools."
......As my Grandaddy use to say, There's do'ers and talkers in this world, which one are you?..... After reading that post, I can see who the Whiiners are! He ought to learn..How to sh~t or get off the pot, and stop being a baby about it, I really overestimated that guy, boy was I wrong!....Ironhorse....
Well I gotta hand it to you guys .... how the hell did you read all that. Sorry .. maybe ... just maybe, I have a limited attention span buuutttttt I got about a paragraph or so into it and realized I wasnt able to make sense of most of it. Well then mind drift, My wonderful wife handing me a glass of Rum and ... well .... I just couldnt continue. Did anyone get ALlllll the way through it and what exactly was he saying about covert what !?!?

"Covert Trolls with Agendas" Sounds like a bad Independent film.


My Knife Page
My way or the highway, not the definition of 'Forum'. Websters says - A public meeting place for open discussion.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> No longer will I accept reveiws of my own tapes that are less than flattering. No longer will there be the "open, public forum" of the past. That merely led to misery due to the idiots and trolls abusing the "freedom".</font>

Hmm...this does not to fit the definition.


[This message has been edited by Steve-O (edited 12-28-2000).]
Nothing better to do than shred Jim Keating when he ain't around, and you don't have a clue what the issues were to begin with?

Shame on ya'.

If you don't understand something, have the common decency to leave it alone.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 12-28-2000).]
Steve - Jim's welcome to post here in his own defense. After all, this is a forum after all....

However, if he insists on posting 1840 words of nearly incoherent babble again, we're still likely to fall asleep before we reach the end.

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Deo Vindice
What Steve Harvey just said.

Look, any tactical or martial arts-oriented forum is going to attract a few loose screws once in a while. BF's forums of that nature are no exception; Bram has done a very good job with his spot, I don't check Donna's FMA forum too often but knowing her, I'd bet things are mostly OK there too. But I'll bet they've had to control trolls. Heck, I had to warn somebody over on Politics just a few days ago over issues that aren't worth rehashing here.

Keating's reputation is quite good. I wouldn't assume *he* is the one at fault, especially not just from that one post.

As to the "Riddle Of Steel" name, that was the name of a well-respected yearly convention which he was a major attraction at but by no means the "star"; Ernie Mayer of Black Cloud, Laci Szabo and many others made it quite an event. I would assume nobody has a problem with James Keating naming the forum after it but in any case, I don't think he was the one that came up with that name...not that I think it's particularly silly or that I care who named it

I can sympathize. Years of being in the unmoderated archery usenet groups and it was downright spam city. If a guy mentioned he killed a deer, he was labeled a bambi killer. There's not much you can talk about these days that someone won't try to politicize. That's one of the reasons I like Plainsman's Cabin forum. He has one major rule: no politics. I'm not a macho martial arts knife fighter but I can understand the sentiment about SPAM. I'm glad this is a well-moderated forum. Anything less can turn into anarchy, which gets to be boring after awhile, and not very productive.


I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.

I actually read it all.

Mr. March, Hoodoo, and Mr. Harvey,

While I respect you and your opinions, I can not agree with your conclusions. I admit that I have never visited the "Riddle of Steel" forum, probably never will, that is not the point. To me, if a moderator can not separate his own thoughts from opposing viewpoints, he is no longer a 'moderator'. In this instance, he would become the OWNER of the so called forum. I have nothing against this, but I think such a 'forum' should be advertised as such.

I.E. Microtech forum - Microtech lovers only!

And as to this..

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Keating's reputation is quite good. I wouldn't assume *he* is the one at fault, especially not just from that one post.

I think there is more than enough in this one post to discredit ANYONE as a 'moderator' of a public forum.

..smiling a bit..

I wouldn't worry too much about the venting the moderator does in ROS. (What is the 'riddle of steel'? Why, if steel is so hard, how come lead hits harder, but I digress.) We have a moderator here with the same attitude. I got some E-mails on my private box this week regarding the problem, and now we quit giving him an audience. He talks, and farts, to himself.--OKG
I admit that I'm not aware specifically what the moderator is complaining about and I can only imagine a scenario. By opposing viewpoints, are you talking about a different philosophy on how to fight with a knife? If that is what the moderator is talking about, then I agree with you. But my impression was that his complaints were quite different (but since he wasn't specific, I can't be sure).
For instance, how would you feel if one or more anti-knife people started posting in every thread and belittled all knives as threatening and dangerous? I've seen similar kinds of things happen in unmoderated groups. Because of all the anti-gun people, it would be impossible to have a gun newsgroup or forum without moderation. I've seen atheists post in religious newsgroups and neonazi holocaust denyers post in Jewish newsgroups. The latter, especially, was unreal. That was FLAME like I've never seen anywhere on the net.

Anywho, maybe I misread the moderator's post, but I though he was talking about anti- types. Antimartial arts, Antiknifefighting, etc. I don't see these as opposing viewpoints. I see these as political viewpoints and they belong in a political forum. But if he is just talking about different philosophical views on knifefighting, methinks he doth protest too much.

I should reread the post (I admit I skimmed it the first time) ain't worth the effort.


I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
I will accept from Harv, Jim 'Wookie' March and Hoodoo that Mr. Keating's martial arts credentials are impeccable.

His position regarding the ROS forum, however, is irrational and self-contradictory (as well as being rambling and almost incoherent).

He says that he first visited other forums, including this one, and found that:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">At the other forums I inspected they had ZERO tolerance for such s**t and they each reacted quickly when trouble arose and squelched it.</font>

He then uses BFC and other forums as justification for his draconian measures. Don't I recall a recent problem with a sig line that resulted in a lot of controversy, but finally with a frank exchange of views, and the poster being allowed to remain with a smaller sig? Instead of this approach, Mr. Keating advocates:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">No longer will I accept reveiws of my own tapes that are less than flattering. No longer will there be the "open, public forum" of the past. That merely led to misery due to the idiots and trolls abusing the "freedom". I have not been able to even answer a question directed to me personally without later some idiot taking me to task on every little aspect of what I said for a long time. How troll-droll it has become. NO MORE. This, for now, is MY forum.</font>

His claim that he got his approach from this (and other forums) is obviously specious. Even more egregious is the poster who later states in support of Mr. Keating, that:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I also know that respect is earned, it is never demanded.</font>

I do not feel that Mr. Keating is making an effort to earn respect; it is obvious that he is demanding it. I wish him luck, but think that his approach is incredibly heavy handed, ill advised, and doomed to failure, as he is stamping out the give and take which makes the democratic process work, and is likely to end up with a forum of syncopants.

He is using a claymore on an unruly pack of Cub Scouts. There is a fine art to moderation. I can only hope that someday Mr. Keating finds it.

Walt, you GO boy !!

a voice of logic, ahh.

Buck Collectors Club Member # 572
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Steve-O and Walt:

As I see it, the situation is thus: Keating runs a martial arts instruction business. He really DOES have a good rep, but inevitably there are people who disagree with his style and teachings. That's *normal*. Some of the people coming and ripping into his style and teachings were simply rude.

That's also normal in the endlessly squabbling MA world
, and he's decided not to tolerate it.

Now remember, the situation is more like Bram's forum here than, say, the Practical Tactical which is there for general MA/combat discussion here on BF. The *main* difference between Bram and Keating is that Keating to date has a more widely-known name, and that means he's going to attract more loonies who want a "verbal piece of him" than Bram gets. Now, I have no problems with Bram becoming better known or more commercial; from all I've heard, he's got the potential to do that. More power to him. If he does, believe me when I say, he's going to have to take strong measures with nutcase flaming trolls too.

One example of a specific problem Keating seems to have run into, is some guy ripping into him for favoring the reverse grip. Now, if I were commenting on such a thread, I might explain that I personally prefer forward because it fits my personal style, my "gameplan", my training. But that doesn't mean I don't respect the reverse; on the contrary, for somebody like me my worst nightmare would be to let some smaller, faster dude get "inside" and up close in the reverse and just chew me up. My defense would be to try and stop somebody from getting that close and up against somebody at Keating's level, or Bram's, or Bob Taylor's for that matter, I doubt I'd pull it off. I might explain why I like forward. None of that is the sort of thing that pissed Keating off.

There's a huge difference between polite comparisons of the pros and cons of two techniques, and ripping into somebody well-known just to get a "rep".

Now, this brings up something else. It's to a forum's benefit to attract "business moderators" who run forums for their own shops. I think I can solidly say that if somebody did a comparison of, say, a REKAT Carny and a similar-size BM Axis, that would be on-topic on the REKAT forum, especially if it was fair. But a post doing nothing but praise some other vendor's stuff, or ripping into REKAT products *unfairly*, based on personal opinions or personal dislikes, or personality clashes, could easily be deleted by the REKAT moderators if they so chose. (And no, I don't presume to predict what they may do, this is all just examples.)

I believe that these "business moderators" should be able to control their own forums to the same degree they could control what happens in their own shop (or Dojo as the case may be). Their forums should be seen as an extension of their business. If we DON'T give them that level of control, they might as well go off and form their own independent forums the way Benchmade still does, rather than come here (or to KF). And *then* the whole community gets fragmented into a buttload of tiny forums with no central discussion area, no place to do independent comparisons such as the non-manufacturer-controlled Reviews areas or the general tactical areas like our own Practical.

Follow? By that logic, Bram has more theoretical control over Commonsense and Sal has on the Spydie forum than I do over "Politics" or Para has over this forum. I don't see that as "unfair", I see it as a necessity.

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