Jim, you are right on, I follow both forums and have seen(read)what you are referring to; both JAK and Bram should and do have control over their own forums and what they wish to call them. If anyone disagrees with their actions;what or the way they wish to teach; being their forums, they can act as they wish, either accepting or deleting comments.I applaud JAK for his comments, and others can, as they wish, not visit their forums again. That is the whole reason these forums exist, to have an interaction with what interests that person, at that exact time. Al
BFC - the kinder, gentler, warm fuzzy, edged forums.
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The Riddle of Steel is still in business. It is a 2 or 3 day MA training/seminar/instruction run by Mr Keating in Hell's Canyon. He is the originator and owner though I believe he does have other instructors sometimes. Jerry VanCook recently attended and did a nice write up in Tactical Knives. Though Keating's style may be different he is highly respected by many in the field.
As I don't know the background or details of the above matter,IHNO.
As I don't know the background or details of the above matter,IHNO.
It is all becoming clearer to me...NOT.
Walt raises some good points. But I seem to recall WAY back that there were some pretty flaming nasty things said about BRAM that were sat on pretty heavily. However, having not followed Mr. Keating's forum and actually read the posts he's ticked about, I have to admit my ignorance and bow out of this debate. I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about so please ignore everything I've said up to this point.
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
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Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
Old Knife Guy
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I'm sure I'm like most people and didn't even know these people or their debate issues until yesterday. I don't like Rambo threads, but I like free speech and discussion, so I hung in there.
The reason I'm not a big fan of these issues is that I don't see the all encompassing importance of 'the overhand grip' as opposed to the 'Arkansas saber scrotum grip.' What troubles me is when guys use terms like "I've dedicated 30 years of my life to acertaining these truths." Then you find out they have 'followers' and train in the desert. Their detractors are heretics; they invite the unwashed to come fight them.
Security is an important issue, but I think these guys get so focused they lose sight of the prize. If their techniques are so deadly and so valuable, why don't police departments and armies all adopt this 'wisdom'?
I read an article in a gun magazine about a year ago where the SW Training Center invited some blade guru to teach LEO's about knife tactics. While all admitted it had some value, they all felt it was smarmy.
If you feel this sort of thing, by all means go to the classes. If one dojo teaches better classes, vote with your feet and your wallet. But in keeping an open mind, don't let your brains fall out.
Show me a newspaper article where the 'knowledge' gained in these classes saved a citizen from the forces of evil.--OKG
The reason I'm not a big fan of these issues is that I don't see the all encompassing importance of 'the overhand grip' as opposed to the 'Arkansas saber scrotum grip.' What troubles me is when guys use terms like "I've dedicated 30 years of my life to acertaining these truths." Then you find out they have 'followers' and train in the desert. Their detractors are heretics; they invite the unwashed to come fight them.
Security is an important issue, but I think these guys get so focused they lose sight of the prize. If their techniques are so deadly and so valuable, why don't police departments and armies all adopt this 'wisdom'?
I read an article in a gun magazine about a year ago where the SW Training Center invited some blade guru to teach LEO's about knife tactics. While all admitted it had some value, they all felt it was smarmy.
If you feel this sort of thing, by all means go to the classes. If one dojo teaches better classes, vote with your feet and your wallet. But in keeping an open mind, don't let your brains fall out.
Show me a newspaper article where the 'knowledge' gained in these classes saved a citizen from the forces of evil.--OKG
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Jim March
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OKG has my respect too.
As he points out, there are frauds and weirdos in the martial arts scene, certainly moreso than in the gun-based tactical training fields.
Ever heard of some dude name of Ashida Kim? Gawd. He ain't alone. From the standpoint of "street effective" arts, more than 50% of the Dojos in the US are close to being outright frauds. Probably closer to 80%. There's historical reasons for that I won't get into here.
Anyhow, with such strange folk floating around in the field, it's a given that they're going to snipe at well-respected people in the biz. Keating is one such respected figure, Bram is another, etc.
The fact that weirdoes are out there shouldn't be a condemnation of the whole field, any more than a bad gun teacher should make everybody join the MMM and sing "kumbaya" all day. And the fact that such freaks need some "tough love" online shouldn't reflect badly on the moderators who have to do it.
Jim
As he points out, there are frauds and weirdos in the martial arts scene, certainly moreso than in the gun-based tactical training fields.
Ever heard of some dude name of Ashida Kim? Gawd. He ain't alone. From the standpoint of "street effective" arts, more than 50% of the Dojos in the US are close to being outright frauds. Probably closer to 80%. There's historical reasons for that I won't get into here.
Anyhow, with such strange folk floating around in the field, it's a given that they're going to snipe at well-respected people in the biz. Keating is one such respected figure, Bram is another, etc.
The fact that weirdoes are out there shouldn't be a condemnation of the whole field, any more than a bad gun teacher should make everybody join the MMM and sing "kumbaya" all day. And the fact that such freaks need some "tough love" online shouldn't reflect badly on the moderators who have to do it.
Jim
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Walt,
How on Earth can you possibly use a quote from me in a line to discredit Keating's idea of "corrective measures" then claim he is irrational?
I get along fine with you Walt, you are a wealth of knowledge in some areas.
You remember the old Mad Doggy Forum at KFC Walt?
Come back and tell me now about Old Jim Keating.
At least Keating knows what he is talking about when it comes to Combatives which is really the foundation of that Forum.
On a lighter note, you guys can walk into the middle of a domestic disturbance where no one is hitting each other yet, and take a side?
Psychic Friends Network at work here, no doubt.
I remember people laughing at Keating and Worden for their views on knife combatives, people who did not know 5% of what those two people knew individually. All chuckles, all around. It seems that only some people are allowed to be abrasive characters on the Internet. You can also add Massad Ayoob and Andy Stanford in that list as well. (Who were ridiculed)
This was on reverse grip use of the knife and other topics.
I can remember people blasting the Bandana Tapes that Keating put out as being suicidal with no historical content, no basis. In other words, they told him he was full of feces and that he was making stuff up.
Then come to find out, all of these Experts that were bashing him caught wind of Sulite and Ilustrisimo using flexible weapons like Bandanas (panyo) and all of the sudden, everything is fine.
Some people do not like Keating. That is their choice. But going in there after he has put up with nonsense for nearly a year now and judging him on what he said seems a bit unfair to me.
People who have befriended others for doing even worse things than Keating, then slamming Keating for being some sort of Internet Ogre, is damned near obscene.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 12-29-2000).]
How on Earth can you possibly use a quote from me in a line to discredit Keating's idea of "corrective measures" then claim he is irrational?
I get along fine with you Walt, you are a wealth of knowledge in some areas.
You remember the old Mad Doggy Forum at KFC Walt?
Come back and tell me now about Old Jim Keating.
At least Keating knows what he is talking about when it comes to Combatives which is really the foundation of that Forum.
On a lighter note, you guys can walk into the middle of a domestic disturbance where no one is hitting each other yet, and take a side?
Psychic Friends Network at work here, no doubt.
I remember people laughing at Keating and Worden for their views on knife combatives, people who did not know 5% of what those two people knew individually. All chuckles, all around. It seems that only some people are allowed to be abrasive characters on the Internet. You can also add Massad Ayoob and Andy Stanford in that list as well. (Who were ridiculed)
This was on reverse grip use of the knife and other topics.
I can remember people blasting the Bandana Tapes that Keating put out as being suicidal with no historical content, no basis. In other words, they told him he was full of feces and that he was making stuff up.
Then come to find out, all of these Experts that were bashing him caught wind of Sulite and Ilustrisimo using flexible weapons like Bandanas (panyo) and all of the sudden, everything is fine.
Some people do not like Keating. That is their choice. But going in there after he has put up with nonsense for nearly a year now and judging him on what he said seems a bit unfair to me.
People who have befriended others for doing even worse things than Keating, then slamming Keating for being some sort of Internet Ogre, is damned near obscene.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 12-29-2000).]
Old Knife Guy
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Will you guys love me tomorrow? In the initial thread, the instructor asked for opposing opinions. Fair enough. I joined the forum, and I posted my views in a polite, non-confrontional format (I even checked my spelling, for alas, even though I was an English minor, 'spell checking' has made me sloppy.)
I do agree that we shouldn't rush to any judgement; there ARE good, honest qualified teachers in all aspects of the martial arts. (And yes, Gerbil, even in the 'marital arts')
I was more concerned about knocking down the 'us and them' wall, and I finished by asking for a sincere response. The mark of this guy will be how he answers an honest question.--OKG
I do agree that we shouldn't rush to any judgement; there ARE good, honest qualified teachers in all aspects of the martial arts. (And yes, Gerbil, even in the 'marital arts')
I was more concerned about knocking down the 'us and them' wall, and I finished by asking for a sincere response. The mark of this guy will be how he answers an honest question.--OKG
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I'm still trying to decipher what a "Rambo Thread" is.
Keating has his snipers, that is for sure. Did he do something wrong? I just don't think so.
As far as Law Enforcement thinking anything about an Edged Weapons Class, unless they are actively into edged weapons, that in and of itself is suspect.
People can do what they want when their name is on the Forum, not as Moderator, but as their Forum.
I just think it is sad that in some cases it is funny, comical, loved and cheered, and in the case of Keating, despised.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 12-29-2000).]
Keating has his snipers, that is for sure. Did he do something wrong? I just don't think so.
As far as Law Enforcement thinking anything about an Edged Weapons Class, unless they are actively into edged weapons, that in and of itself is suspect.
People can do what they want when their name is on the Forum, not as Moderator, but as their Forum.
I just think it is sad that in some cases it is funny, comical, loved and cheered, and in the case of Keating, despised.
[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 12-29-2000).]
Old Knife Guy
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I just received an E-mail response for a guy who referred to himself as "not a moderator, I'm the owner, Jim." Despite my trying to be polite, he accused me of 'trolling.' So much for honest opposing view points.
Well, if he is the owner, he has a right to view things this way, which is why I never loan out my truck.
Several people here said this guy was a cut above the usual Rambos. I'm still waiting to see that.--OKG
Well, if he is the owner, he has a right to view things this way, which is why I never loan out my truck.
Several people here said this guy was a cut above the usual Rambos. I'm still waiting to see that.--OKG
....I don't take JAK to task for what he said, so much, as the way he said it. A man of his caliber, should not be ranting and raving for 1800+ words in a threatening manner about all the, "trolls," attacking him personally for the things he said or done.If he is so concerned about getting the respect he deserves, he sure did'nt earn it , he demanded it in the wrong way....Ironhorse...
Richard
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Well, we all know there are trolls scouting the net. They can be a real pain in the butt, however 'trolls' are usually dealt with by the forums in general. But, when I see Mr. Keating say stuff like, its my forum and anything less that flattering and glowing reviews of my stuff will not be tolerated, I tend to lose any ounce of respect I may have had. So, does that mean if anybody says anything negative that they are trolls and stupid? Nope.
I have seen a couple of makers whose forums were run that way, and they would appear to now be deserted for the most part. People can only toss meaningless praise and butt kissing around for only so long.
I know of one instance where anything at all the least bit negative was considered trolling and deleted. Most of those at the start would, to most people, have been considered honest and informed opinions...but a few forum owners/moderators could not see it. They were sooo thin skinned and sensitive that they saw it as a direct attack and failed to listen to anything but praise and admiration.
Mr. Keating, I wish you well in your forum, but when you start running it as a shrine to yourself instead of a FORUM then I think you will slowly watch it wither away.
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Richard Todd - Digital knife photography
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Do your site a favor, get quality digital images!!!
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I have seen a couple of makers whose forums were run that way, and they would appear to now be deserted for the most part. People can only toss meaningless praise and butt kissing around for only so long.
I know of one instance where anything at all the least bit negative was considered trolling and deleted. Most of those at the start would, to most people, have been considered honest and informed opinions...but a few forum owners/moderators could not see it. They were sooo thin skinned and sensitive that they saw it as a direct attack and failed to listen to anything but praise and admiration.
Mr. Keating, I wish you well in your forum, but when you start running it as a shrine to yourself instead of a FORUM then I think you will slowly watch it wither away.
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Richard Todd - Digital knife photography
icq 61363141
My WebSite
Do your site a favor, get quality digital images!!!
New photos added!!!
Old Knife Guy
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What I don't understand is how can a guy who claims to want to be the best at self-defense take all criticism so personally and not look for some merit?
I've been associated with firearms for almost 30 years, but they invent stuff everyday. I keep reading, I keep studying, and problems that plagued cartridges twenty years ago have now been remedied.
When the first Chinese firecracker hit the last Medeviel knight, the art of cold steel changed forever. That was 1,000 years ago, and denying it won't set back time.
I too am disappointed, because JAK was identified to me as 'one of the good ones.' Just to give him the benefit of the doubt, I sent him ANOTHER polite private response to his 'trolling' E-mail. Sooner or later I'll get the honest answer. I even invited him to our forum to read the posts.--OKG
I've been associated with firearms for almost 30 years, but they invent stuff everyday. I keep reading, I keep studying, and problems that plagued cartridges twenty years ago have now been remedied.
When the first Chinese firecracker hit the last Medeviel knight, the art of cold steel changed forever. That was 1,000 years ago, and denying it won't set back time.
I too am disappointed, because JAK was identified to me as 'one of the good ones.' Just to give him the benefit of the doubt, I sent him ANOTHER polite private response to his 'trolling' E-mail. Sooner or later I'll get the honest answer. I even invited him to our forum to read the posts.--OKG
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What is this, "cut above the usual Rambo" crap? No wonder you are considered a troll, you are a Troll. The same thing as some Rosie O'Donnell supporter saying that you are just another Rambo because you say that you have been involved in firearms for so many years.
The person that E-mailed you was obviously James Nowka, the Owner of KFC, I guess in your myopic little world of omnipotence, you failed to research almost everything you are blabbing about. Meaning? It might occur to you, in a rare moment of lucidity, that there is more than one "Jim" in the world.
Of course, you stereotype and compartmentalize like a gun grabber, even if you are not, so what is the difference?
And who on God's green ball we call Earth would sit and count how many words Keating wrote?
There is medication that will take care of OCD.
The person that E-mailed you was obviously James Nowka, the Owner of KFC, I guess in your myopic little world of omnipotence, you failed to research almost everything you are blabbing about. Meaning? It might occur to you, in a rare moment of lucidity, that there is more than one "Jim" in the world.
Of course, you stereotype and compartmentalize like a gun grabber, even if you are not, so what is the difference?
And who on God's green ball we call Earth would sit and count how many words Keating wrote?
There is medication that will take care of OCD.
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By the way, maybe I actually missed something Keating said, did he say he was the best at self-defense or the best teacher of it?
If not, than you are simply demonizing him to get your own point across. Interesting.
If not, than you are simply demonizing him to get your own point across. Interesting.
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Look guys, let's not beat on Jim - he's earned his place and respect, and I can sympathize with him. Let's face it, Trolls, flamers, and all the rest really suck, and while that isn't a reason for a police state, I can see where he is coming from. You can only take so much before you have to vent, lord knows Mike and I have done so in the past, and probably will continue to do so in the future.
Whatever happens rests with Jim, the people of KFC, and the members. Let's all take a wait and see attitude, ok?
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Whatever happens rests with Jim, the people of KFC, and the members. Let's all take a wait and see attitude, ok?
Spark
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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
Insert witty quip here
Old Knife Guy
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To Don Rearic: Okay, you got me, you're right. Assuming this thread at any level had a 'Rambo aspect' was NOT hearing the guy out, and that's not the way I like to do things. If JAK was here, I'd apologize for the insult, inferred, real or implied.
I made mention of our problems here--the prankster angle. Personally, I like the 'new knife news' threads. And I DON'T know the problems he's had on his forum--maybe he's at wits end.
Like it or not, people do judge a book by its cover. For many, this was our first look at JAK, and he came out of the gate smoking and taking no prisoners. Truth be told at that moment, I wouldn't have sat next to him on a bus.
Now, is he a good teacher? People I trust tell me he is, and that's a different matter. But I'm good at my job, too, and I have a right to opinions. That's not a troll.--OKG
I made mention of our problems here--the prankster angle. Personally, I like the 'new knife news' threads. And I DON'T know the problems he's had on his forum--maybe he's at wits end.
Like it or not, people do judge a book by its cover. For many, this was our first look at JAK, and he came out of the gate smoking and taking no prisoners. Truth be told at that moment, I wouldn't have sat next to him on a bus.
Now, is he a good teacher? People I trust tell me he is, and that's a different matter. But I'm good at my job, too, and I have a right to opinions. That's not a troll.--OKG
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