Big Knives or Handaxes?

22-rimfire said:
. The big difference in cutting ability comes with axes where you traditionally use two hands and as a result can apply greater force at the cut.
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Machetes, knives, hatchets...they all work but I disagree with this. One thing that hatchets have going for them is that their weight is where it needs to be for chopping. This allows you to swing the hatchet with LESS force then with a knife or a machete and still get a good chop in. With a knife or a machete you have to swing with a lot of force and you have to swing them fast to overcome their more neutral weight distribution. IMO, hatchets are safer to use for chopping because the swings are slower and more controlled. A lot of people talk about how deep knives and machetes bite and if you have a small diameter branch, that's a bonus but on larger pieces of wood where you need to pull the blade OUT of the wood repeatedly, a hatchet works better because it doesn't bite so deep and it has a thicker geometry that(with a good convex) releases the hatchet better then a flat machete. With a hatchet it's more of a fluid, half power, pecking type motion instead of trying to blow through the wood in one go. I think this is where people, mistakenly IMO, think machetes and knives are better. They look at what the tool can do in this instance rather then how the tool performs over a days worth of use. I feel I use less energy with a hatchet then with a machete when chopping. YMMV but like I said they all get the job done.
 
I actually prefer a decent folding tree/pruning saw for larger pieces of wood and such it's usually faster and a whole lot lighter to carry. BTW the kukri I have comes in @ about 26 oz. + the bk15.
 
I have a GK Panawal kukri that is 16" overall with a blade that is less than 11" long, perhaps 10 1/2". I have used it for cutting down trees that were two thick for my loping shears. I have lots of pines that I have been systematically cutting out in my backyard. I compared it to my Wetterlings small hand axe, the same one as described by the poster, and the kukri was way better. The kukri was much easier to use, required less effort and was much faster. The extra length of the kukri blade helped.
The kukri is a cross between a knife and an axe, and mine has a blade that is more than 3/8" thick. It will handle small chopping chores and zombies with ease.
 
Consider a folding saw/knife combo. A saw will cut better with more efficiency than a hatchet or knife, and the combo weighs about the same as one axe of about the same capability.
 
I think the answer also lies on where do you intend to use your tools, and the skill proficiency at each tool.

A machete/big knife might be more desirable than an axe/hatchet in jungle area, whereas if you need to chop a lot of wood, a hatchet might be more desirable than a big knife. If a person has never chopped with a hatchet, I think a big knife with smaller bite might be a little safer to yield.
 
comis said:
I think the answer also lies on where do you intend to use your tools, and the skill proficiency at each tool.

A machete/big knife might be more desirable than an axe/hatchet in jungle area, whereas if you need to chop a lot of wood, a hatchet might be more desirable than a big knife. If a person has never chopped with a hatchet, I think a big knife with smaller bite might be a little safer to yield.
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Machetes and large knives are common in tropical areas. Axes, hatchets, and hawks in temperate zones with hardwoods.

Why?

Tropical growth is usually lush, water filled, and the need to cut it back exists for a large part of year. It grows quickly and needs to be cut back frequently.

Temperate zone hardwoods have to survive freezing conditions for up to 90 days, grow much more slowly, have a lot more fiber and heartwood. Once cut over the land stays that way for years, slowly recovering. It's an completely different ecoculture.

That's why we see machetes preferred in tropical zones, and the historical legacy of temperate woods in Europe and America has been toward the axe, hatchet, and hawk.

In a comparison choice, it's really recognizing the environment you will be interacting with. A machete in the Ozarks won't last long battling blackberry vines, hardwood saplings, and hedge. In virgin areas pines still dominate, a machete can't deal with them. On the other hand, a hatchet is rarely used to chop back an existing trail in triple canopy rain forest, either.

Use the tool for the job, our forefathers figured it out when they couldn't afford the luxury of doing it wrong. In America, there is a variety of ecozones, fit the tool to the land. After that, then fit the tool to how you might be using it - we don't always need a 12" blade, we don't always need a cruiser axe for blazing virgin timber for cutting. If it's a hardwoods environment, all you might really need is a small hawk to clear a campsite and cut up deadwood. The idea of chopping down green trees for immediate firewood is ridiculous to those of us who heat our homes with wood. It's a poor resource when deadwood is abundant, and if not, you picked a bad campsite.

In all, it's up to what you plan to do with it, which is why the question really has to be defined by the user. We can't guess, we can only show what would be an obvious choice once all the chores are lined up.
 
It seems most are in agreement about the job being the biggest factor. It just makes sense. The waters can be muddied by big knives and khukuri, as some are more like axes than knives, but then those lose the advantage of versatility. In general use (for me) the knife is more useful (I use mine around the house every chance I get). That being said, I really have little experience with axes of any size. I may need to chop smaller logs, but cutting brushy type vegetation is more likely. Three big knives I have which work very well at chopping (limited, wouldn't want to do it all day:)) arm sized mesquite logs, which is extremely hard wood are: ESEE Junglas, Cold Steel Gurkha Kukri, and a Tora World War Battalion/Regimental Model khukuri. All three are around 16-17 inches long, and the first two weigh 23 oz. The Tora weighs 19 oz. All three also work very well at cutting springy, green stuff. IMHO, the versatility factor is off the charts for these three and they're easy to use and maintain. You can carry any of them around all day without realizing it as well. As knives get heavier, I find them less useful, but that's just for me and my area. The most efficient big knife I have is my CS LTC Kukri, but it's more machete so I'm leaving it out of the discussion.

If one wanted to see how a big knife works for them, I advise picking up one of the short and thicker machetes. For $8, you can get the 12" or 14" Tramontina bush model. It's a bargain and will give you a good idea how a big knife handles your chores. If you hate it for woods use, it's good for a million other things around the house. Good luck.

This thread needs pics:D Tora WW Battalion/Regimental used to cut back esparanza and trim a palm tree around the house. It's fun and easy to use.

torareggie002_zpsad25382c.jpg


This well seasoned mesquite is as tough as it gets and the Tora does a great job on it. For limited campsite/fire prep type work, it'll handle anything I could need. Afterward, I steel the edge with the side of a screwdriver and it shaves hair again.

ToraBattalionKhukuri001_zpsda8cb71c.jpg


The CS Gurkha does a number on the mesquite as well.

CSGurkha006_zpsa78d7b2c.jpg


....yet deftly slices the smallest of vegetation.

CSGurkha002_zpsb41f9651.jpg


I don't believe I have pics of the Junglas in use, but it works just as well as the others.
 
badlees said:
I don't have a big knife yet but I use this small forest axe when I'm camping and love it! Like mentioned above, I would need to get something else to get through heavy brush or thickets.
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Looks like you are all sorted in the chopping department. :thumbup:
I have the same axe and the hatchet and I own several large knives. I find that I like chopping with an axe and batoning with the knife. Do not get me wrong some of the big knives are excellent choppers but I prefer the axe for that task.

Having said that. When I hike out I take big blade and saw instead of axe because this combo is more versatile and requires less energy to get the job done.
 
tirod3 said:
A machete in the Ozarks won't last long battling blackberry vines, hardwood saplings, and hedge.
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I'm sorry, but that's just flat out wrong... A good long machete is the best tool for blackberry clearing (source: I've spent the last 3 months clearing 4 acres of blackberries with one.), unless you're one of the lucky few with a heavy duty scythe on hand. They will melt through the green vines like a lightsaber, and the dried out old growth is easy enough to whack off at the base and throw away/burn. A machete works pretty well against maple saplings and juniper, too.
 
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For felling trees I like a full size axe.

For everything else I like a big knife. It’s safer—or at least less dangerous.

When I was an idiot teenager I had a close encounter between the flat of a hatchet and my knee. That’s when I gave up on hatchets in the woods.

I have a better chance of deflecting a strike gone wrong if I’m swinging a trail knife or a machete.
 
comis said:
I think the answer also lies on where do you intend to use your tools, and the skill proficiency at each tool.

A machete/big knife might be more desirable than an axe/hatchet in jungle area, whereas if you need to chop a lot of wood, a hatchet might be more desirable than a big knife. If a person has never chopped with a hatchet, I think a big knife with smaller bite might be a little safer to yield.
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I must say; I'm not too bad with a hatchet. But I have noted that it's pretty hard to bit with one unless the targets anchored (with is often not the case with outlying branches).
 
adc5 said:
I must say; I'm not too bad with a hatchet. But I have noted that it's pretty hard to bit with one unless the targets anchored (with is often not the case with outlying branches).
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Anytime you are hacking away, you want your target to be anchored. Otherwise, you are wasting most of your energy and asking for injury. Trees are to be limbed at the trunk.
 
dogstar said:
Anytime you are hacking away, you want your target to be anchored. Otherwise, you are wasting most of your energy and asking for injury. Trees are to be limbed at the trunk.
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Mostly true; yet when you're hacking at thick underbrush or can't get in close to the tree (as is the case with some of the local growth), that's not an option. But I don't use an axe for that, obviously.
 
I appreciate that a knife can chop down a tree. I've done it. The point to remember is that most of these comparisons are done with green wood, filled with sap, and in warm seasons. Rarely deadwood, or when dormant.

I reread Kephardt's chapter on what tools to take into the North American wilderness, and in his day the knives were less than 8" long. If it was one individual camping in hardwoods, he suggested a tomahawk. If it was a group of four, the axe. A single individual could harvest enough dry deadwood from the standing forest to keep a decent cook fire going for days, and if needed, take down 6-12" saplings for shelter. The axe could handle larger trees, but the point is that there could be a division of labor - and rotation. Cutting up a large tree takes time and expends calories. I speculate that four out foraging for firewood could find plenty of it ready to gather in the same time it would take to cut up one large tree - which would need careful selection for it's ability to burn when wet. I've yet to see any species in deadwood that can't be used in some fashion, taking into account which ones burn quickly to nothing, and those that run to coals that burn all night.

Our history in America is pretty clear, the axe, hatchet, and hawk dominated when camping or clearing woodland. What has happened in recent times is to look at third world use of long knives because that is where most of those societies are geographically located. It's really a recent interest in our society to emulate them, but that doesn't mean they are the appropriate tool in our environment. I don't find references to someone batoning a cabin out of the wilderness to wait out a long winter - it would be a interesting accomplishment, but certainly one that stands alone.
 
tirod3 said:
I appreciate that a knife can chop down a tree. I've done it. The point to remember is that most of these comparisons are done with green wood, filled with sap, and in warm seasons. Rarely deadwood, or when dormant.

I reread Kephardt's chapter on what tools to take into the North American wilderness, and in his day the knives were less than 8" long. If it was one individual camping in hardwoods, he suggested a tomahawk. If it was a group of four, the axe. A single individual could harvest enough dry deadwood from the standing forest to keep a decent cook fire going for days, and if needed, take down 6-12" saplings for shelter. The axe could handle larger trees, but the point is that there could be a division of labor - and rotation. Cutting up a large tree takes time and expends calories. I speculate that four out foraging for firewood could find plenty of it ready to gather in the same time it would take to cut up one large tree - which would need careful selection for it's ability to burn when wet. I've yet to see any species in deadwood that can't be used in some fashion, taking into account which ones burn quickly to nothing, and those that run to coals that burn all night.

Our history in America is pretty clear, the axe, hatchet, and hawk dominated when camping or clearing woodland. What has happened in recent times is to look at third world use of long knives because that is where most of those societies are geographically located. It's really a recent interest in our society to emulate them, but that doesn't mean they are the appropriate tool in our environment. I don't find references to someone batoning a cabin out of the wilderness to wait out a long winter - it would be a interesting accomplishment, but certainly one that stands alone.
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That's an interesting observation, and I admit I'd be pressed to baton dried pine OR oak of nearly any size half so well as I can with an axe.
 
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